An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8

- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>
>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
seldom do it anymore.

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 1:59:32 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
> >
> >https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
> >
> >- Frank Krygowski
> Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
> seldom do it anymore.

You have a bike designed more or less for crippled people. While it is easy to operate and fast, it is too close to the ground and too easy for traffic to overlook. Bike lanes work very well with regular bicycles. The only weakness of them is that too many very poor drivers believe that bicycles are limited to bicycle lanes. This could be easily fixed with suitable questions on the driver's license exam. But DMV's are too often peopled by people as dumb as many drivers.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
<cyclintom@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 1:59:32 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>> >
>> >https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>> >
>> >- Frank Krygowski
>> Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>> seldom do it anymore.
>
>You have a bike designed more or less for crippled people.

Nonsense. I know of many trike riders and I've seen many more. I've
never seen any crippled trike riders. They're a bit of a phenomenon
around here. I see a couple of them on my regular rides, and there's a
bike trail a few miles away where there will be as many trikes as two
wheelers, sometimes more. I started on the first one because I was
tired of the discomfort of two wheeler seats and bars. I'm a big guy,
heavily muscled, and my butt and and wrists were hurting. I was
quickly hooked and quickly upgraded to the better quality Catrike. I
told people I could ride faster on diamond frame, but longer and
further on the Catrike. I was soon doing 70/80+ mile rides without
taking a break, something I could never do on a two-wheeler. By the
way, not having to unclip every time I stop is wonderful.

> While it is easy to operate and fast, it is too close to the ground and too easy for traffic to overlook. Bike lanes work very well with regular bicycles. The only weakness of them is that too many very poor drivers believe that bicycles are limited to bicycle lanes. This could be easily fixed with suitable questions on the driver's license exam. But DMV's are too often peopled by people as dumb as many drivers.

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 3:39:53 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 15:14:31 -0700 (PDT), Tom Kunich
> <cycl...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 1:59:32 PM UTC-7, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
> >> >
> >> >https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
> >> >
> >> >- Frank Krygowski
> >> Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
> >> seldom do it anymore.
> >
> >You have a bike designed more or less for crippled people.
> Nonsense. I know of many trike riders and I've seen many more. I've
> never seen any crippled trike riders. They're a bit of a phenomenon
> around here. I see a couple of them on my regular rides, and there's a
> bike trail a few miles away where there will be as many trikes as two
> wheelers, sometimes more. I started on the first one because I was
> tired of the discomfort of two wheeler seats and bars. I'm a big guy,
> heavily muscled, and my butt and and wrists were hurting. I was
> quickly hooked and quickly upgraded to the better quality Catrike. I
> told people I could ride faster on diamond frame, but longer and
> further on the Catrike. I was soon doing 70/80+ mile rides without
> taking a break, something I could never do on a two-wheeler. By the
> way, not having to unclip every time I stop is wonderful.
> > While it is easy to operate and fast, it is too close to the ground and too easy for traffic to overlook. Bike lanes work very well with regular bicycles. The only weakness of them is that too many very poor drivers believe that bicycles are limited to bicycle lanes. This could be easily fixed with suitable questions on the driver's license exam. But DMV's are too often peopled by people as dumb as many drivers.
I went on a cruise ship to Mexico with my wife's children. One of the programs was put on by a woman and I suppose her husband who had some sort of illness that paralyzed half of his body. They had these trikes and had crossed the US from coast to coast both ways. They dropped off in Mexico where I think their plan was to ride from Mexico City to Alaska.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>
>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>
>>- Frank Krygowski
>
>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>seldom do it anymore.

By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>
>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>
>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>
>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>seldom do it anymore.
>
>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!

You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...

Let freedom ring

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>
> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
It’s opinion dressed up as facts, for example cycle lanes most certainly
can be built with out having traffic turning across it, Westminster to the
The Tower in london is one.

And if it is, can be light etc controlled CS9 which is a new segregated
lane from Kew Bridge to Hammersmith does that, does mean you end up like
cars waiting at lights etc, but certainly no slower than the road.

Roger Merriman.

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 4:59:32 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
> >
> >https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
> >
> >- Frank Krygowski
> Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
> seldom do it anymore.

You seem to be treating "safe" as a binary condition. It's assigning such a label is far, far more
complicated than a simple "safe" vs. "not safe" evaluation.

For example: Safe compared to what? And measured how - per mile traveled? Per hour exposure?
Per trip? Per trip of approximately similar distance? Before answering, please note that cycling
has been repeatedly been measured as safer than walking in terms of fatalities per mile.

How about defining an activity as "safe" if it meets the criterion "safer than not doing the activity"?
To me, that sounds pretty simple and logical. By that standard, bicycling is certainly "safe" on average.
Every study on its benefits vs. detriments has determined that the health benefits of cycling greatly
outweigh its risks.

Which does not mean it's safe for everybody in every situation. Many people are just not safe, due
mostly to their knowledge and behavior on a bike. But, as they say, ignorance can be fixed. There are
organizations that teach even very timid people to ride on normal roads among traffic. For example,
https://cyclingsavvy.org/

That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 7:45:57 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
> >
> > https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> It’s opinion dressed up as facts, for example cycle lanes most certainly
> can be built with out having traffic turning across it, Westminster to the
> The Tower in london is one.

I just looked at Google Maps' recommendation for biking that route. It looks like you're right -
very specifically because you have a waterside path, and underpasses or flyovers. FWIW, I
think such paths are usually fine. But in any typical city, they cannot possibly reach a large
percentage of destinations.

- Frank Krygowski

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 4:59:32 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>> >
>> >https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>> >
>> >- Frank Krygowski
>> Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>> seldom do it anymore.
>
>You seem to be treating "safe" as a binary condition. It's assigning such a label is far, far more
>complicated than a simple "safe" vs. "not safe" evaluation.
>
>For example: Safe compared to what? And measured how - per mile traveled? Per hour exposure?
>Per trip? Per trip of approximately similar distance? Before answering, please note that cycling
>has been repeatedly been measured as safer than walking in terms of fatalities per mile.
>
>How about defining an activity as "safe" if it meets the criterion "safer than not doing the activity"?
>To me, that sounds pretty simple and logical. By that standard, bicycling is certainly "safe" on average.
>Every study on its benefits vs. detriments has determined that the health benefits of cycling greatly
>outweigh its risks.
>
>Which does not mean it's safe for everybody in every situation. Many people are just not safe, due
>mostly to their knowledge and behavior on a bike. But, as they say, ignorance can be fixed. There are
>organizations that teach even very timid people to ride on normal roads among traffic. For example,
>https://cyclingsavvy.org/
>
>That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
>That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird. If I must travel among the
angry drivers and exhaust spewing vehicles, it will be in air
conditioned comfort with the windows up and good music on the radio.

BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.

For what it's worth, I too hope you never ride the bike trails around
me. We already have enough pricks on them.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>
>>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>
>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>
>>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>seldom do it anymore.
>>
>>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>
>You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>
>Let freedom ring

I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.

As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
traffic laws come to mind. In fact I read that even books are banned
in the U.S.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 5:26:07 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>
> >On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
> >wrote:
> >
> >>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
> >><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
> >>
> >>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >>><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
> >>>>
> >>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
> >>>>
> >>>>- Frank Krygowski
> >>>
> >>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
> >>>seldom do it anymore.
> >>
> >>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
> >>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
> >
> >You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
> >of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
> >Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
> >
> >Let freedom ring
> I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
> have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>
> As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
> traffic laws come to mind. In fact I read that even books are banned
> in the U.S.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Or that driving cars and trucks on roads and highways should be banned. "Every road is a bike lane"

On 9/11/2022 7:25 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>>
>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>> Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>> seldom do it anymore.
>>>
>>> By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>> riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>>
>> You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>> of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>> Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>>
>> Let freedom ring
>
> I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
> have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>
> As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
> traffic laws come to mind. In fact I read that even books are banned
> in the U.S.
> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
>

'inappropriate for young children' in a school setting is
not at all the same as 'banned books'.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 17:50:34 -0700 (PDT), Oculus Lights
<barry@barrybeams.com> wrote:

>On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 5:26:07 PM UTC-7, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>> >On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
>> >wrote:
>> >
>> >>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> >><sol...@drafting.not> wrote:
>> >>
>> >>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >>><frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>>
>> >>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>> >>>>
>> >>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>> >>>>
>> >>>>- Frank Krygowski
>> >>>
>> >>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>> >>>seldom do it anymore.
>> >>
>> >>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>> >>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>> >
>> >You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>> >of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>> >Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>> >
>> >Let freedom ring
>> I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
>> have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>>
>> As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
>> traffic laws come to mind. In fact I read that even books are banned
>> in the U.S.
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>
>
>Or that driving cars and trucks on roads and highways should be banned. "Every road is a bike lane"

Certainly. a great idea.... well except in most economies a great deal
of traffic is concerned with hauling stuff from place to place. Here I
see trucks with a 40ft container and hauling a trailer with another 40
ft container. I believe the max capacity of a 40 ft container is in
the neighborhood of 22,000 kg.

Sure take a lot of bikes to haul 40,000 kg of goods (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:54:39 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/11/2022 7:25 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>> <soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>>>
>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>> Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>>> seldom do it anymore.
>>>>
>>>> By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>>> riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>>>
>>> You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>>> of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>>> Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>>>
>>> Let freedom ring
>>
>> I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
>> have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>>
>> As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
>> traffic laws come to mind. In fact I read that even books are banned
>> in the U.S.
>> https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
>>
>
>'inappropriate for young children' in a school setting is
>not at all the same as 'banned books'.

That is a play on words. Banned - prohibit especially by legal means
or social pressure.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 9/11/2022 1:59 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>
>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>
> Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
> seldom do it anymore.

As soon as the author quoted John Forester she lost all credibility.

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 9:55:08 PM UTC-4, sms wrote:
> On 9/11/2022 1:59 PM, Catrike Rider wrote:
> > On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> > <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
> >>
> >> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
> >>
> >> - Frank Krygowski
> >
> > Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
> > seldom do it anymore.
> As soon as the author quoted John Forester she lost all credibility.

That's a fact-free , anti-intellectual response! Why not deal with the factual portions of the article?

- Frank Krygowski

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 07:25:58 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>>
>>>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>>
>>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>>
>>>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>>seldom do it anymore.
>>>
>>>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>>
>>You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>>of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>>Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>>
>>Let freedom ring
>
>I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
>have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>
>As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
>traffic laws come to mind.

That's more a case where almost everybody thinks it's unsafe

> In fact I read that even books are banned
>in the U.S.
>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html

So do you really think it's OK for school libraries to have
pornography?

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 04:23:25 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 07:25:58 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>>>
>>>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>>>
>>>>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>>>seldom do it anymore.
>>>>
>>>>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>>>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>>>
>>>You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>>>of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>>>Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>>>
>>>Let freedom ring
>>
>>I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
>>have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>>
>>As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
>>traffic laws come to mind.
>
>That's more a case where almost everybody thinks it's unsafe
>
>> In fact I read that even books are banned
>>in the U.S.
>>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
>
>So do you really think it's OK for school libraries to have
>pornography?

If a book is "legal" in a society then it should be "legal" in schools
in that society.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 15:41:26 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 04:23:25 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 07:25:58 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>>>>seldom do it anymore.
>>>>>
>>>>>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>>>>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>>>>
>>>>You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>>>>of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>>>>Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>>>>
>>>>Let freedom ring
>>>
>>>I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
>>>have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>>>
>>>As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
>>>traffic laws come to mind.
>>
>>That's more a case where almost everybody thinks it's unsafe
>>
>>> In fact I read that even books are banned
>>>in the U.S.
>>>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
>>
>>So do you really think it's OK for school libraries to have
>>pornography?
>
>If a book is "legal" in a society then it should be "legal" in schools
>in that society.

Do you have any children? If so, how young were they when you thought
it was ok for them to have access to pornography?

Frank Krygowski <frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 7:45:57 PM UTC-4, Roger Merriman wrote:
>> Frank Krygowski <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>
>>> https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?shS4453f74ca8
>>>
>>>
>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>
>> Its opinion dressed up as facts, for example cycle lanes most certainly
>> can be built with out having traffic turning across it, Westminster to the
>> The Tower in london is one.
>
> I just looked at Google Maps' recommendation for biking that route. It
> looks like you're right -
> very specifically because you have a waterside path, and underpasses or flyovers. FWIW, I
> think such paths are usually fine. But in any typical city, they cannot
> possibly reach a large
> percentage of destinations.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>
Probably not but most city certainly do have a river bank and london is not
alone in using it’s like this.

And get other objects such as edge of parks and what not that can be used
in the same way.

More modern ones will have light controlled junctions new one I linked last
post has that, so each junction is controlled. Ie cars can only turn at the
junctions not directly across the cycle path.

In all of this it requires a bit of bravery by the councils etc, as cars
etc and people in general dislike change, but realistically cars are being
limited where they can go in various city’s.

London has changed with that, it still has some elevated walkways from
after the war when car was king, so only the cars used the roads.

But times change.

Roger Merriman

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 05:01:04 -0400, Catrike Rider
<soloman@drafting.not> wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 15:41:26 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 04:23:25 -0400, Catrike Rider
>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 07:25:58 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>>>>>seldom do it anymore.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>>>>>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>>>>>
>>>>>You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>>>>>of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>>>>>Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>>>>>
>>>>>Let freedom ring
>>>>
>>>>I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
>>>>have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>>>>
>>>>As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
>>>>traffic laws come to mind.
>>>
>>>That's more a case where almost everybody thinks it's unsafe
>>>
>>>> In fact I read that even books are banned
>>>>in the U.S.
>>>>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
>>>
>>>So do you really think it's OK for school libraries to have
>>>pornography?
>>
>>If a book is "legal" in a society then it should be "legal" in schools
>>in that society.
>
>Do you have any children? If so, how young were they when you thought
>it was ok for them to have access to pornography?

I guess the question is "what is pornography". After all farm kids
learn all about why mammals have babies at very early ages and in most
cases children in families with more then one child usually learn what
the other sex looks like and why little girls squat to pee and little
boys do it standing up pretty early on.

But, one might ask, if pornography is nasty then why isn't it
outlawed? Why do you want nasty things in your society?

--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 16:56:38 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 05:01:04 -0400, Catrike Rider
><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>
>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 15:41:26 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 04:23:25 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 07:25:58 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 19:13:18 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
>>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:59:29 -0400, Catrike Rider
>>>>>>><soloman@drafting.not> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 11:04:24 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>><frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>An author in Forbes doesn't like bike lanes. I generally agree.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>https://www.forbes.com/sites/dianafurchtgott-roth/2022/09/08/bike-lanes-dont-make-cycling-safe/?sh=534453f74ca8
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>- Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>Nothing can make bicycling among truck and car traffic safe. I very
>>>>>>>>seldom do it anymore.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
>>>>>>>riding on public roads and highways must be banned!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>You do what you're comfortable with, I'll do the same. I'm not a fan
>>>>>>of banning something simply because someone thinks it's not safe.
>>>>>>Neither do I want others to decide what's in my best interest...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Let freedom ring
>>>>>
>>>>>I've ridden for 20 years, or so, entirely in countries that did not
>>>>>have "bike lanes" with no problems at all.
>>>>>
>>>>>As for banning things because they are thought to be unsafe... Well,
>>>>>traffic laws come to mind.
>>>>
>>>>That's more a case where almost everybody thinks it's unsafe
>>>>
>>>>> In fact I read that even books are banned
>>>>>in the U.S.
>>>>>https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/30/books/book-ban-us-schools.html
>>>>
>>>>So do you really think it's OK for school libraries to have
>>>>pornography?
>>>
>>>If a book is "legal" in a society then it should be "legal" in schools
>>>in that society.
>>
>>Do you have any children? If so, how young were they when you thought
>>it was ok for them to have access to pornography?
>
>I guess the question is "what is pornography". After all farm kids
>learn all about why mammals have babies at very early ages and in most
>cases children in families with more then one child usually learn what
>the other sex looks like and why little girls squat to pee and little
>boys do it standing up pretty early on.

Seriously? You don't know what pornography is?

>But, one might ask, if pornography is nasty then why isn't it
>outlawed? Why do you want nasty things in your society?

Well, you see, we have this freedom of speech thing where the
government doesn't get to dictate what we say, and thus what we hear
and see. As for the chldren most of us believe that in most cases, the
parents do get to decide what their children should be exposed to.

On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> >
> >- Frank Krygowski
> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.

That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.

> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.

OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)

How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?

Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
really are more than mine.

- Frank Krygowski