On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 6:54:27 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 12:56:35 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 9:36:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
> >> > On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:55:42 AM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > > That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> >> > > are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> >> > > That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> >> > >
> >> > > - Frank Krygowski
> >> > Speaking of prejudice ... Geezz you hit a new low.
> >
> >Sorry it offends you, Lou, but there are many people who lack the competence to ride anywhere but
> >a bike path. There are many people who are afraid to ride even on quiet streets. I've met both types.
> >As I said, they're free to continue doing that. I don't have to admire that timidity.
> >
> >> Frank lives in the middle of nowhere and hence never sees very heavy traffic. He can't even imagine traffic like most of the rest of bike riders see.
> >
> >Let's see: I've ridden Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC, Pittsburgh, Charlotte NC, Jacksonville FL, Cleveland, Akron, Columbus, Cincinnati, Nashville, Atlanta, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, Los Angeles, San
> >Francisco, Portland, Toronto, Paris, Dublin, Amsterdam... How long of a list do you need?
> >
> >- Frank Krygowski
> Unusual as it may seem, I must agree with Frank. I ride/rode in
> Bangkok which has rather heavy traffic and only once in, perhaps 20
> years did I have a problem - I started to pass a bus on the left - we
> drive on the left here - only to find that he was turning left and I
> had to hop up on the sidewalk to avoid being squashed.
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQgqOJdOkDY
> --
> Cheers,
>
> John B.

Thailand is left side drive. Did not know that. Thought just England, Japan, and the English colonies were left side. Except Canada colony. They figured out the right side of the road to drive on.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:03:59 +0700, John B. <slocombjb@gmail.com>
wrote:

> By gorry you are right. So, logically, to make cycling really safe
> riding on public roads and highways must be banned!

I was told that the state of New York attempted exaclty that, and a
legislator invited to speak at a meeting of the Mohawk-Hudson Wheelmen
expected her audience to break out in cheers at the announcement.

That was just before the MHW got a government-relations committee.

But the meeting at which I heard that rumor was well over thirty years
ago, and the event was history then; I've probably gotten the details
wrong.

--
Joy Beeson
joy beeson at centurylink dot net
http://wlweather.net/PAGEJOY/

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 3:50:45 PM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> >> >> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> >> >> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >- Frank Krygowski
> >> >> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
> >> >> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
> >> >> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
> >> >> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
> >> >
> >> >That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
> >> >to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
> >> >
> >> >> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
> >> >> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
> >> >
> >> >OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
> >> <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
> >> lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
> >> because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
> >> couldn't come up witha response..
> >
> >Franks a bit of a curmudgeon here, but at the end of the day he's one of the more worthy individuals to have technical discussion with unlike certain other individuals that claim to be in the upper echelon of cycling technology but can't figure out a fucking quick link (https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/Z4vNkmV1BgAJ). As far as your alleged political debating prowess, he might have sensed you gravitating toward the RBT magatard side of the spectrum along with andre the useless - who continues to use this forum as nothing but his own personal political toilet - and RBT's own Walter Mitty (aka tommy the liar) - who has come up with such gems as 'there was no recession before obama took office' and 'i couldn't figure out why my bike wouldn't shift until I bought the special campy non-stretch shifting cables' (the list is nearly endless) - I think it's far more likely frank would rather disengage than perform an exercise akin to wrestling with a pig.*
> >
> >> >How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
> >> >by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
> >> >How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
> >> >roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
> >> >foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
> >> >100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
> >> >How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
> >>
> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> >> biking courage and experience.
> >
> >Clearly you've never done either.
> Clearly you don't have a clue.
> > They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.
> Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts
> carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than
> having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and
> lots of tools. Camping is a skill I learned as child. The knowledge is
> knowing what to bring and how to use it. Real camping, BTW, is never
> going to be done where you can ride a bicycle.

Hmmmm. Are the hikers who walk the 2000 miles of the Appalachian Trail considered to be real campers by you? I guess they are real campers since they are walking. But what about the Adventure Cycling Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail. Its about 3000 miles long from Canada down to Mexico. Its 2100 miles of unpaved dirt/gravel roads, 60 miles of singletrack, 950 miles of blacktop, and 50 miles of bike trails. I am sure in many parts of this route the bikers are far from any civilization and must carry all camping gear and cook their own food. And find water in creeks. Are they also excluded from being called real campers?

My bike camping has been in state parks mostly. Bathrooms and shower facilities. And buy food in town at the store or restaurant. But I carried all my camping gear on my bike. Paved roads only.

> > Organizing group rides takes an understanding of the audience and the goals. Picking courses, setting up rest stops, sometimes mobile support and coordinating/enforcing marshals at busy intersections and first responders all take an understanding of the activity of cycling in general and each event adds to experienced gained in the sport. Take it a step further and promote USAC races - which I have a great deal of experience in. The difficulties increase by an order of magnitude when dealing with USAC officials, scoring, and the more-than-occasional 32-year-old cat 5 wannbe puke that threatens to sue (and even physical violence) because he got scored second for the $5 prize in the half-way prime. It's called "giving back". You should try it sometime. I have little respect for people who show up at these events and denigrate the volunteer standing on a remote corner of the course wearing an orange vest.
> I, on the other hand, have little respect for those who play follow
> the leader on bicycles.
> >> >Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
> >> >really are more than mine.
> >> <SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's
> >> evaluation of my "courage and experience, nor am I interested in you
> >> beyond my current evaluation of you as a loudmouth blowhard.
> >>
> >> >- Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >> Why is it that leftist loons are always so eager to get at other's
> >> personal information?
> >
> >Very clearly, you haven't been paying much attention to tom and andre. They are the only ones here who demanded that I tell them what I do for a living, if I'm married (they both have some sort of bizarre homoerotic fantasy about me), how many kids I have, how old I am - no one else here has made any such demands. So this hypothetical of yours that 'only leftist loons' seem to do it is very clearly proven wrong in this forum, by the two loudest and most arrogant right-wingers we have.
> >
> >I also notice you post under an anonymous handle. I don't care, the vast majority here don't. The exceptions are - you guessed it - tom and andre. They both regularly criticize me for posting anonymously. "The anonymous coward zencycle" is one of their favorites, claiming that anyone posting anonymously is a coward and unworthy of human dignity. Tommy likes to follow it up with threats of violence. He regularly threatens to 'cave [enter name here] skull in', 'break [enter name here] legs'. Of course I'm guessing their hypocrisy will be on full display in your case, since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *
> Actually, all I did was correct some inaccurate politcal propaganda
> >BTW - Very few bicycle-related discussion gets started in this forum without one of those two turning it into a personal attack within the first few responses. Here are a couple of recent classic examples:
> >
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/tuLzyUUoN6c/m/_Qz5o5VAAAAJ
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/IFISJQJ6voU/m/vNGasPEpBgAJ
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qfAQlQyDvJQ/m/LT0zABlKBgAJ
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/-0vf-tuaAQAJ
> >
> >* I haven't read any of your political contributions, and I don't _intend_ to.
> I'll keep political contributions limited to shredding other's
> political contributions. I have no need to politic here, but I'll
> challenge political nonsense.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 21:37:37 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 6:54:27 PM UTC-5, John B. wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:20:21 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 12:56:35 PM UTC-4, cycl...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 9:36:35 AM UTC-7, Lou Holtman wrote:
>> >> > On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:55:42 AM UTC+2, frkr...@gmail.com wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > > That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>> >> > > are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
>> >> > > That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>> >> > >
>> >> > > - Frank Krygowski
>> >> > Speaking of prejudice ... Geezz you hit a new low.
>> >
>> >Sorry it offends you, Lou, but there are many people who lack the competence to ride anywhere but
>> >a bike path. There are many people who are afraid to ride even on quiet streets. I've met both types.
>> >As I said, they're free to continue doing that. I don't have to admire that timidity.
>> >
>> >> Frank lives in the middle of nowhere and hence never sees very heavy traffic. He can't even imagine traffic like most of the rest of bike riders see.
>> >
>> >Let's see: I've ridden Philadelphia, Baltimore, Washington DC, Pittsburgh, Charlotte NC, Jacksonville FL, Cleveland, Akron, Columbus, Cincinnati, Nashville, Atlanta, New Orleans, Oklahoma City, Los Angeles, San
>> >Francisco, Portland, Toronto, Paris, Dublin, Amsterdam... How long of a list do you need?
>> >
>> >- Frank Krygowski
>> Unusual as it may seem, I must agree with Frank. I ride/rode in
>> Bangkok which has rather heavy traffic and only once in, perhaps 20
>> years did I have a problem - I started to pass a bus on the left - we
>> drive on the left here - only to find that he was turning left and I
>> had to hop up on the sidewalk to avoid being squashed.
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CQgqOJdOkDY
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.
>
>Thailand is left side drive. Did not know that. Thought just England, Japan, and the English colonies were left side. Except Canada colony. They figured out the right side of the road to drive on.

Well... if you drive an ox team you are on the left side - the near
side - and it makes sense if that is the side closest to the edge of
the road, rather than out in the middle of the road (:-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 21:46:39 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 3:50:45 PM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>> >> >> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
>> >> >> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >- Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
>> >> >> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
>> >> >> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
>> >> >> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
>> >> >
>> >> >That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
>> >> >to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
>> >> >
>> >> >> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
>> >> >> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
>> >> >
>> >> >OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
>> >> <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
>> >> lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
>> >> because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
>> >> couldn't come up witha response..
>> >
>> >Franks a bit of a curmudgeon here, but at the end of the day he's one of the more worthy individuals to have technical discussion with unlike certain other individuals that claim to be in the upper echelon of cycling technology but can't figure out a fucking quick link (https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/Z4vNkmV1BgAJ). As far as your alleged political debating prowess, he might have sensed you gravitating toward the RBT magatard side of the spectrum along with andre the useless - who continues to use this forum as nothing but his own personal political toilet - and RBT's own Walter Mitty (aka tommy the liar) - who has come up with such gems as 'there was no recession before obama took office' and 'i couldn't figure out why my bike wouldn't shift until I bought the special campy non-stretch shifting cables' (the list is nearly endless) - I think it's far more likely frank would rather disengage than perform an exercise akin to wrestling with a pig.*
>> >
>> >> >How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
>> >> >by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
>> >> >How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
>> >> >roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
>> >> >foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
>> >> >100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
>> >> >How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
>> >>
>> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
>> >> biking courage and experience.
>> >
>> >Clearly you've never done either.
>> Clearly you don't have a clue.
>> > They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.
>> Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts
>> carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than
>> having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and
>> lots of tools. Camping is a skill I learned as child. The knowledge is
>> knowing what to bring and how to use it. Real camping, BTW, is never
>> going to be done where you can ride a bicycle.
>
>Hmmmm. Are the hikers who walk the 2000 miles of the Appalachian Trail considered to be real campers by you? I guess they are real campers since they are walking. But what about the Adventure Cycling Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail. Its about 3000 miles long from Canada down to Mexico. Its 2100 miles of unpaved dirt/gravel roads, 60 miles of singletrack, 950 miles of blacktop, and 50 miles of bike trails. I am sure in many parts of this route the bikers are far from any civilization and must carry all camping gear and cook their own food. And find water in creeks. Are they also excluded from being called real campers?
>
>My bike camping has been in state parks mostly. Bathrooms and shower facilities. And buy food in town at the store or restaurant. But I carried all my camping gear on my bike. Paved roads only.

I guess I'd have to ask, "What is Camping?" The first guy to ride a
bicycle across the U.S., in 1884, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens
who carried a spare pair of socks, a spare shirt, an "overcoat" and a
pistol.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 21:46:39 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
<ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 3:50:45 PM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>> >> >> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
>> >> >> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >- Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
>> >> >> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
>> >> >> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
>> >> >> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
>> >> >
>> >> >That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
>> >> >to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
>> >> >
>> >> >> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
>> >> >> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
>> >> >
>> >> >OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
>> >> <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
>> >> lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
>> >> because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
>> >> couldn't come up witha response..
>> >
>> >Franks a bit of a curmudgeon here, but at the end of the day he's one of the more worthy individuals to have technical discussion with unlike certain other individuals that claim to be in the upper echelon of cycling technology but can't figure out a fucking quick link (https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/Z4vNkmV1BgAJ). As far as your alleged political debating prowess, he might have sensed you gravitating toward the RBT magatard side of the spectrum along with andre the useless - who continues to use this forum as nothing but his own personal political toilet - and RBT's own Walter Mitty (aka tommy the liar) - who has come up with such gems as 'there was no recession before obama took office' and 'i couldn't figure out why my bike wouldn't shift until I bought the special campy non-stretch shifting cables' (the list is nearly endless) - I think it's far more likely frank would rather disengage than perform an exercise akin to wrestling with a pig.*
>> >
>> >> >How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
>> >> >by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
>> >> >How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
>> >> >roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
>> >> >foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
>> >> >100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
>> >> >How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
>> >>
>> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
>> >> biking courage and experience.
>> >
>> >Clearly you've never done either.
>> Clearly you don't have a clue.
>> > They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.
>> Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts
>> carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than
>> having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and
>> lots of tools. Camping is a skill I learned as child. The knowledge is
>> knowing what to bring and how to use it. Real camping, BTW, is never
>> going to be done where you can ride a bicycle.
>
>Hmmmm. Are the hikers who walk the 2000 miles of the Appalachian Trail considered to be real campers by you?

If they're not being supported..

> I guess they are real campers since they are walking. But what about the Adventure Cycling Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail. Its about 3000 miles long from Canada down to Mexico. Its 2100 miles of unpaved dirt/gravel roads, 60 miles of singletrack, 950 miles of blacktop, and 50 miles of bike trails. I am sure in many parts of this route the bikers are far from any civilization and must carry all camping gear and cook their own food. And find water in creeks. Are they also excluded from being called real campers?

I guess I'd call it camping when they are more than a day's ride or
walk from civilazation and have no support.

>My bike camping has been in state parks mostly. Bathrooms and shower facilities. And buy food in town at the store or restaurant. But I carried all my camping gear on my bike. Paved roads only.
>

My 'camping' gear on my Florida Key's ride consisted of a little one
man tent and a small pan for morning coffee. Gotta have that morning
coffee. Collect a little firewood and kindling before going to sleep.
Pan coffee is fast and easy. Learned it frrom my Grandpa who also
taught me how to shoot, hunt, fish, and make whiskey.

>
>> > Organizing group rides takes an understanding of the audience and the goals. Picking courses, setting up rest stops, sometimes mobile support and coordinating/enforcing marshals at busy intersections and first responders all take an understanding of the activity of cycling in general and each event adds to experienced gained in the sport. Take it a step further and promote USAC races - which I have a great deal of experience in. The difficulties increase by an order of magnitude when dealing with USAC officials, scoring, and the more-than-occasional 32-year-old cat 5 wannbe puke that threatens to sue (and even physical violence) because he got scored second for the $5 prize in the half-way prime. It's called "giving back". You should try it sometime. I have little respect for people who show up at these events and denigrate the volunteer standing on a remote corner of the course wearing an orange vest.
>> I, on the other hand, have little respect for those who play follow
>> the leader on bicycles.
>> >> >Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
>> >> >really are more than mine.
>> >> <SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's
>> >> evaluation of my "courage and experience, nor am I interested in you
>> >> beyond my current evaluation of you as a loudmouth blowhard.
>> >>
>> >> >- Frank Krygowski
>> >>
>> >> Why is it that leftist loons are always so eager to get at other's
>> >> personal information?
>> >
>> >Very clearly, you haven't been paying much attention to tom and andre. They are the only ones here who demanded that I tell them what I do for a living, if I'm married (they both have some sort of bizarre homoerotic fantasy about me), how many kids I have, how old I am - no one else here has made any such demands. So this hypothetical of yours that 'only leftist loons' seem to do it is very clearly proven wrong in this forum, by the two loudest and most arrogant right-wingers we have.
>> >
>> >I also notice you post under an anonymous handle. I don't care, the vast majority here don't. The exceptions are - you guessed it - tom and andre. They both regularly criticize me for posting anonymously. "The anonymous coward zencycle" is one of their favorites, claiming that anyone posting anonymously is a coward and unworthy of human dignity. Tommy likes to follow it up with threats of violence. He regularly threatens to 'cave [enter name here] skull in', 'break [enter name here] legs'. Of course I'm guessing their hypocrisy will be on full display in your case, since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *
>> Actually, all I did was correct some inaccurate politcal propaganda
>> >BTW - Very few bicycle-related discussion gets started in this forum without one of those two turning it into a personal attack within the first few responses. Here are a couple of recent classic examples:
>> >
>> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/tuLzyUUoN6c/m/_Qz5o5VAAAAJ
>> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/IFISJQJ6voU/m/vNGasPEpBgAJ
>> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qfAQlQyDvJQ/m/LT0zABlKBgAJ
>> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/-0vf-tuaAQAJ
>> >
>> >* I haven't read any of your political contributions, and I don't _intend_ to.
>> I'll keep political contributions limited to shredding other's
>> political contributions. I have no need to politic here, but I'll
>> challenge political nonsense.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 18:46:07 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 7:00:57 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 15:36:51 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 4:50:54 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
>> >> >> biking courage and experience.
>> >> >
>> >> >If you had done bike camping, you would know you are wrong.
>> >> Bad assumption.
>> >
>> >Hmm. You're saying you wouldn't know you were wrong even if you _had_ done some bike
>> >camping? OK, that's more reasonable than most of what you've written.
>> >
>> >> >And organizing a multi-hundred
>> >> >rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.
>> >> Nonsense, but it might require a desire to tell others what to do.
>> >
>> >It sounds like you're guessing based on zero experience.You're certainly being very closed mouth
>> >about your actual experience. Please tell us about the invitational bike rides you've organized.
>> >Did yours ever win a national award? (Mine did, from the League of American Bicyclists.)
>>
>> <SNICKER> I don't play follow the leader.. I ride to get away from
>> people, especially those kinds of people.
>
>And I'm sure lots of people are grateful!
>
>> >In fact, please tell us about the organized century rides you've attended. If you did have experience,
>> >you'd know there's not much "telling people what to do" involved. There is lots of work choosing good
>> >routes, marking routes, providing maps, organizing lunch and snack stops, providing support repairs, etc.
>> >People choose whether or not to do the ride, whether or not to follow the route precisely, etc. and are
>> >glad for the support. They are happy enough that they pay money for the privilege of riding the route.
>> I want nothing to do with anybody that needs some organizer to plan
>> their ride.
>
>Hah! Says the guy who rides only on bike paths, where not only the route but the entire facility is planned
>by bureaucrats!
>
>SUCH a timid fellow!
>
>- Frank Krygowski

It's so obvious that people who go on, and even pay for group rides do
so for the social aspects. That and the fact that they assume that all
their non-riding needs will be taken care of.

I also note that camping on a bicycle is what real campers call a
weenie roast.

On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *

For the record. I've never been a big fan of Trump, but I did approve
of what he did as President, and I did vote for him. Once because I
couldn't Stomach Hillary, and once because I couldn't stomach Biden. I
did not approve of how he left office nor the loonies that invaded the
Capitol, but I've yet to see any evidense that Trump was involved in
the invasion. I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue
Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
have to visit any city. I reject the propaganda from both sides. I
favor Trump's policy on closing the border. I reject the Biden
nonsense about Trump voters being terrorists. I've witnessed some
BLM/Antifi rioting and I once backed down one of them when they got in
my face and demanded that I say some crook's name.

On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 4:50:45 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
> >> >> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
> >> >> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >- Frank Krygowski
> >> >> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
> >> >> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
> >> >> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
> >> >> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
> >> >
> >> >That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
> >> >to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
> >> >
> >> >> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
> >> >> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
> >> >
> >> >OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
> >> <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
> >> lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
> >> because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
> >> couldn't come up witha response..
> >
> >Franks a bit of a curmudgeon here, but at the end of the day he's one of the more worthy individuals to have technical discussion with unlike certain other individuals that claim to be in the upper echelon of cycling technology but can't figure out a fucking quick link (https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/Z4vNkmV1BgAJ). As far as your alleged political debating prowess, he might have sensed you gravitating toward the RBT magatard side of the spectrum along with andre the useless - who continues to use this forum as nothing but his own personal political toilet - and RBT's own Walter Mitty (aka tommy the liar) - who has come up with such gems as 'there was no recession before obama took office' and 'i couldn't figure out why my bike wouldn't shift until I bought the special campy non-stretch shifting cables' (the list is nearly endless) - I think it's far more likely frank would rather disengage than perform an exercise akin to wrestling with a pig.*
> >
> >> >How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
> >> >by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
> >> >How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
> >> >roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
> >> >foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
> >> >100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
> >> >How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
> >>
> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> >> biking courage and experience.
> >
> >Clearly you've never done either.
> Clearly you don't have a clue.

If you actually thought "camping add[s] nothing to anyone's biking courage and experience. ", you wouldn't have written "Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and lots of tools. ", because that's exactly what bike packers do. But now we see you're engaging in hair-splitting and goal-post shifting - here's a clue, that doesn't work here except with rubes like kunich. Claiming that "real" camping isn't possible on a bike is really quite ignorant and arrogant, about the same as your arrogance regarding people who like to participate in group rides.

> > They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.
> Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts
> carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than
> having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and
> lots of tools. Camping is a skill I learned as child. The knowledge is
> knowing what to bring and how to use it. Real camping, BTW, is never
> going to be done where you can ride a bicycle.

oh, please Great Arbiter Of All That Is True and Accurate, tell us what constitutes "real" camping and why isn't that possible on a bicycle. I would suggest if you think remote wilderness camping isn't doable on a bike, you don't have enough cycling experience to comment on such things (https://bikepacking.com/plog/easy-days-hard-days/)

> > Organizing group rides takes an understanding of the audience and the goals. Picking courses, setting up rest stops, sometimes mobile support and coordinating/enforcing marshals at busy intersections and first responders all take an understanding of the activity of cycling in general and each event adds to experienced gained in the sport. Take it a step further and promote USAC races - which I have a great deal of experience in. The difficulties increase by an order of magnitude when dealing with USAC officials, scoring, and the more-than-occasional 32-year-old cat 5 wannbe puke that threatens to sue (and even physical violence) because he got scored second for the $5 prize in the half-way prime. It's called "giving back". You should try it sometime. I have little respect for people who show up at these events and denigrate the volunteer standing on a remote corner of the course wearing an orange vest.
>
> I, on the other hand, have little respect for those who play follow
> the leader on bicycles.

Says the guy who trucks his trike to a bike path and follows a prescribed route. I was also quite amused at your ironic comment to Frank "<SNICKER> I don't play follow the leader. I ride to get away from people, especially those kinds of people."

<SNICKER> Sure, because a public bike path is the BEST place to get away from people who want to follow a planned route. That right there is what we call "tommy logic"....

> >> >Answer in detail, please. That will allow us to gauge whether your courage and experience
> >> >really are more than mine.
> >> <SNORT> I'm not the least bit interested in your, or anyone else's
> >> evaluation of my "courage and experience, nor am I interested in you
> >> beyond my current evaluation of you as a loudmouth blowhard.
> >>
> >> >- Frank Krygowski
> >>
> >> Why is it that leftist loons are always so eager to get at other's
> >> personal information?
> >
> >Very clearly, you haven't been paying much attention to tom and andre. They are the only ones here who demanded that I tell them what I do for a living, if I'm married (they both have some sort of bizarre homoerotic fantasy about me), how many kids I have, how old I am - no one else here has made any such demands. So this hypothetical of yours that 'only leftist loons' seem to do it is very clearly proven wrong in this forum, by the two loudest and most arrogant right-wingers we have.
> >
> >I also notice you post under an anonymous handle. I don't care, the vast majority here don't. The exceptions are - you guessed it - tom and andre. They both regularly criticize me for posting anonymously. "The anonymous coward zencycle" is one of their favorites, claiming that anyone posting anonymously is a coward and unworthy of human dignity. Tommy likes to follow it up with threats of violence. He regularly threatens to 'cave [enter name here] skull in', 'break [enter name here] legs'. Of course I'm guessing their hypocrisy will be on full display in your case, since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *
>
> Actually, all I did was correct some inaccurate politcal propaganda
> >BTW - Very few bicycle-related discussion gets started in this forum without one of those two turning it into a personal attack within the first few responses. Here are a couple of recent classic examples:
> >
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/tuLzyUUoN6c/m/_Qz5o5VAAAAJ
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/IFISJQJ6voU/m/vNGasPEpBgAJ
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/qfAQlQyDvJQ/m/LT0zABlKBgAJ
> >https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/-0vf-tuaAQAJ
> >
> >* I haven't read any of your political contributions, and I don't _intend_ to.
> I'll keep political contributions limited to shredding other's
> political contributions. I have no need to politic here, but I'll
> challenge political nonsense.

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>
> I also note that camping on a bicycle is what real campers call a
> weenie roast.

Bullshit

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> >since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *
> For the record. I've never been a big fan of Trump, but I did approve
> of what he did as President, and I did vote for him. Once because I
> couldn't Stomach Hillary, and once because I couldn't stomach Biden. I
> did not approve of how he left office nor the loonies that invaded the
> Capitol, but I've yet to see any evidense that Trump was involved in
> the invasion. I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue
> Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
> have to visit any city. I reject the propaganda from both sides. I
> favor Trump's policy on closing the border. I reject the Biden
> nonsense about Trump voters being terrorists. I've witnessed some
> BLM/Antifi rioting and I once backed down one of them when they got in
> my face and demanded that I say some crook's name.

That was an odd little rant, but I respect it. FWIW - I've never felt the need to carry a weapon on a bike, or while visiting any city, or anywhere else really. I can't imagine what it must be to go through life being that afraid of everything - and yes, I've been to most major cities in the US as well as quite a few outside the US. I live just outside of Boston in Haverhill, a small city of ~70K with a sizable lower-income demographic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haverhill,_Massachusetts#Demographics, per capita income ~$25K, hardly a wealthy town consider the cost of living here), and one town over from Lawrence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence,_Massachusetts#Demographics) which has a sizable illegal immigrant population and a permanent state police gang task force station.. I'm not afraid to go there at night, either. They have a few decent night clubs.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 03:07:21 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 4:50:45 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> >> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>> >> >> >are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
>> >> >> >That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >- Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
>> >> >> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
>> >> >> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
>> >> >> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
>> >> >
>> >> >That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
>> >> >to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
>> >> >
>> >> >> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
>> >> >> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
>> >> >
>> >> >OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
>> >> <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
>> >> lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
>> >> because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
>> >> couldn't come up witha response..
>> >
>> >Franks a bit of a curmudgeon here, but at the end of the day he's one of the more worthy individuals to have technical discussion with unlike certain other individuals that claim to be in the upper echelon of cycling technology but can't figure out a fucking quick link (https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/Z4vNkmV1BgAJ). As far as your alleged political debating prowess, he might have sensed you gravitating toward the RBT magatard side of the spectrum along with andre the useless - who continues to use this forum as nothing but his own personal political toilet - and RBT's own Walter Mitty (aka tommy the liar) - who has come up with such gems as 'there was no recession before obama took office' and 'i couldn't figure out why my bike wouldn't shift until I bought the special campy non-stretch shifting cables' (the list is nearly endless) - I think it's far more likely frank would rather disengage than perform an exercise akin to wrestling with a pig.*
>> >
>> >> >How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
>> >> >by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
>> >> >How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
>> >> >roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
>> >> >foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
>> >> >100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
>> >> >How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
>> >>
>> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
>> >> biking courage and experience.
>> >
>> >Clearly you've never done either.
>> Clearly you don't have a clue.
>
>If you actually thought "camping add[s] nothing to anyone's biking courage and experience. ", you wouldn't have written "Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and lots of tools. ", because that's exactly what bike packers do. But now we see you're engaging in hair-splitting and goal-post shifting - here's a clue, that doesn't work here except with rubes like kunich. Claiming that "real" camping isn't possible on a bike is really quite ignorant and arrogant, about the same as your arrogance regarding people who like to participate in group rides.
>
>> > They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.
>> Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts
>> carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than
>> having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and
>> lots of tools. Camping is a skill I learned as child. The knowledge is
>> knowing what to bring and how to use it. Real camping, BTW, is never
>> going to be done where you can ride a bicycle.
>
>oh, please Great Arbiter Of All That Is True and Accurate, tell us what constitutes "real" camping and why isn't that possible on a bicycle. I would suggest if you think remote wilderness camping isn't doable on a bike, you don't have enough cycling experience to comment on such things (https://bikepacking.com/plog/easy-days-hard-days/)

A quick look at that site tells me that those guys probably had
support. I note most of the photos are around primitive roads. If I'm
wrong, I'll be happy to amend my earlier comment, but still, it's a
group event. Not my thing.

>> > Organizing group rides takes an understanding of the audience and the goals. Picking courses, setting up rest stops, sometimes mobile support and coordinating/enforcing marshals at busy intersections and first responders all take an understanding of the activity of cycling in general and each event adds to experienced gained in the sport. Take it a step further and promote USAC races - which I have a great deal of experience in. The difficulties increase by an order of magnitude when dealing with USAC officials, scoring, and the more-than-occasional 32-year-old cat 5 wannbe puke that threatens to sue (and even physical violence) because he got scored second for the $5 prize in the half-way prime. It's called "giving back". You should try it sometime. I have little respect for people who show up at these events and denigrate the volunteer standing on a remote corner of the course wearing an orange vest.
>>
>> I, on the other hand, have little respect for those who play follow
>> the leader on bicycles.
>
>Says the guy who trucks his trike to a bike path and follows a prescribed route. I was also quite amused at your ironic comment to Frank "<SNICKER> I don't play follow the leader. I ride to get away from people, especially those kinds of people."

Group riders play follow the leader, although I could also call it,
"mother may I."

><SNICKER> Sure, because a public bike path is the BEST place to get away from people who want to follow a planned route. That right there is what we call "tommy logic"....

They are a good place to get away from people where I ride. I've often
gone 10/15 miles without seeing another person, except far off in the
distance. I once rode 50 round trip miles on the Van Fleet trail (look
it up) and didn't encounter another human. Lots of critters, though. I
don't mind critters. Sadly, that was a few years back. More recently
I've seen for or five other riders on that trip.

Now I know there are so called "mup" trails, but they are where there
are already a lot of people. I've occasionally ridden such trails and
have been forced off the road by "groupers" who are too busy gossiping
to watch where they're going. One of favorite rides involves a short
section of such a trail. I'm glad to get beyond that stretch. Once I
encountered a bunch of groupers on that section, all in the same color
shirts, blocking the entire path so they could hear their
"mother-my-I" instructions.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 03:11:20 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>
>> I also note that camping on a bicycle is what real campers call a
>> weenie roast.
>
>Bullshit

I'll bet those bicycle "campers" bring a little gas fired burner to
cook with.

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 03:27:32 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
<funkmasterxx@hotmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> >since you've already noted at least sympathy (if not outright support) for trump. *
>> For the record. I've never been a big fan of Trump, but I did approve
>> of what he did as President, and I did vote for him. Once because I
>> couldn't Stomach Hillary, and once because I couldn't stomach Biden. I
>> did not approve of how he left office nor the loonies that invaded the
>> Capitol, but I've yet to see any evidense that Trump was involved in
>> the invasion. I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue
>> Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
>> have to visit any city. I reject the propaganda from both sides. I
>> favor Trump's policy on closing the border. I reject the Biden
>> nonsense about Trump voters being terrorists. I've witnessed some
>> BLM/Antifi rioting and I once backed down one of them when they got in
>> my face and demanded that I say some crook's name.
>
>That was an odd little rant, but I respect it. FWIW - I've never felt the need to carry a weapon on a bike, or while visiting any city, or anywhere else really. I can't imagine what it must be to go through life being that afraid of everything - and yes, I've been to most major cities in the US as well as quite a few outside the US. I live just outside of Boston in Haverhill, a small city of ~70K with a sizable lower-income demographic (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haverhill,_Massachusetts#Demographics, per capita income ~$25K, hardly a wealthy town consider the cost of living here), and one town over from Lawrence (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lawrence,_Massachusetts#Demographics) which has a sizable illegal immigrant population and a permanent state police gang task force station.. I'm not afraid to go there at night, either. They have a few decent night clubs.

A few years back I encountered a thug blocking my way. He was in a
wilderness area known for homeless people. I charged him and he
stepped away, grabbing and ripping my shirt as I passed. My wife said
"From now on, you'll be carrying a gun." Sitting 6 inches off the
ground puts a person in a vulnerable position, and sadly, at 78 years
old, I'm no longer able to quickly jump up off the Catrike. I'll
actually pass out if I don't go about it slowly and carefully, and
yeah, that's happened.

On 9/13/2022 1:36 AM, John B. wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 21:46:39 -0700 (PDT), "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 3:50:45 PM UTC-5, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:51:45 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 06:59:57 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Sunday, September 11, 2022 at 8:23:34 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sun, 11 Sep 2022 16:55:40 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> That does not mean you must ride on roads. If you lack the competence or minimal courage and
>>>>>>>> are unwilling to learn, keep trucking your pedal vehicle to a bike path and riding back and forth.
>>>>>>>> That's too boring for me, but maybe someday I'll be in the same state. Although I hope not.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> - Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>> Boring? My bike path rides go through the country. I see lots of
>>>>>>> wildlife and natural wonders. I've seen many snakes, gators, deer,
>>>>>>> coyotes, a bear, wild pigs, squirrels, many different kinds of birds,
>>>>>>> herons, hawks, an occasional frigate bird.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> That's fine if it satisfies you. I prefer access to the entire countryside, rather than being confined
>>>>>> to the same out-and-back rides on bike trails.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> BY the way, I grew up and spent many hours riding on roads, so I have
>>>>>>> all the courage and experience I need. Probably more than you.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> OK, tell us your biking experience, please. (And drop the 3rd grader insults.)
>>>>> <CHUCKLE> That's from the guy who suggested that I didn't ride in bike
>>>>> lanes because I wasn't courageous or experienced enough... all
>>>>> because, I assume because I shredded his Trump political post and he
>>>>> couldn't come up witha response..
>>>>
>>>> Franks a bit of a curmudgeon here, but at the end of the day he's one of the more worthy individuals to have technical discussion with unlike certain other individuals that claim to be in the upper echelon of cycling technology but can't figure out a fucking quick link (https://groups.google.com/g/rec.bicycles.tech/c/7oGPAc0MWIA/m/Z4vNkmV1BgAJ). As far as your alleged political debating prowess, he might have sensed you gravitating toward the RBT magatard side of the spectrum along with andre the useless - who continues to use this forum as nothing but his own personal political toilet - and RBT's own Walter Mitty (aka tommy the liar) - who has come up with such gems as 'there was no recession before obama took office' and 'i couldn't figure out why my bike wouldn't shift until I bought the special campy non-stretch shifting cables' (the list is nearly endless) - I think it's far more likely frank would rather disengage than perform an exercise akin to wrestling with a pig.*
>>>>
>>>>>> How much recreational riding have you done on roads? How many years commuting to work
>>>>>> by bike on normal roads? How much other utility riding have you done on ordinary roads?
>>>>>> How much overnight or longer traveling have you done on normal
>>>>>> roads? How much bike camping? How many U.S. states have you ridden in? How many
>>>>>> foreign countries? How many century rides have you done? How many rides longer than
>>>>>> 100 miles in one day? How many times have you organized and led friends on road rides?
>>>>>> How many times have you organized and run multi-hundred rider event rides on normal roads?
>>>>>
>>>>> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
>>>>> biking courage and experience.
>>>>
>>>> Clearly you've never done either.
>>> Clearly you don't have a clue.
>>>> They both do, and quite dramatically. Such activities contribute _greatly_ to ones cycling acumen. If someone wanted to talk to me about handling or repairing a bike under difficult conditions, I would certainly pay more attention to an experienced bike-packer than someone who rides a three-wheeler on a paved bike path. I have a great deal of respect for someone who can ride for a hundred miles in hilly terrain on a touring bike loaded with camping gear, especially in inclement weather. That's not to imply that I _don't_ respect the bike-path-trike-rider, I respect anyone who gets out on an HPV, but to claim that bikepacking and organizing events "adds nothing" is completely wrong.
>>> Fixing a bike, while all alone in the rain with tools and parts
>>> carried on that bike requires far more knowledge and experience than
>>> having a vehicle following along with an exprienced bike mechanic and
>>> lots of tools. Camping is a skill I learned as child. The knowledge is
>>> knowing what to bring and how to use it. Real camping, BTW, is never
>>> going to be done where you can ride a bicycle.
>>
>> Hmmmm. Are the hikers who walk the 2000 miles of the Appalachian Trail considered to be real campers by you? I guess they are real campers since they are walking. But what about the Adventure Cycling Great Divide Mountain Bike Trail. Its about 3000 miles long from Canada down to Mexico. Its 2100 miles of unpaved dirt/gravel roads, 60 miles of singletrack, 950 miles of blacktop, and 50 miles of bike trails. I am sure in many parts of this route the bikers are far from any civilization and must carry all camping gear and cook their own food. And find water in creeks. Are they also excluded from being called real campers?
>>
>> My bike camping has been in state parks mostly. Bathrooms and shower facilities. And buy food in town at the store or restaurant. But I carried all my camping gear on my bike. Paved roads only.
>
> I guess I'd have to ask, "What is Camping?" The first guy to ride a
> bicycle across the U.S., in 1884, was a bloke named Thomas Stevens
> who carried a spare pair of socks, a spare shirt, an "overcoat" and a
> pistol.
>

heh heh definition depends on where you are and with whom
you associate!

https://www.refinery29.com/en-gb/2019/05/231566/camp-fashion-gay-culture-drag-lgbtq-history

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 18:46:07 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 7:00:57 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 15:36:51 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 4:50:54 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> >> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
> >> >> >> biking courage and experience.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >If you had done bike camping, you would know you are wrong.
> >> >> Bad assumption.
> >> >
> >> >Hmm. You're saying you wouldn't know you were wrong even if you _had_ done some bike
> >> >camping? OK, that's more reasonable than most of what you've written.
> >> >
> >> >> >And organizing a multi-hundred
> >> >> >rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.
> >> >> Nonsense, but it might require a desire to tell others what to do.
> >> >
> >> >It sounds like you're guessing based on zero experience.You're certainly being very closed mouth
> >> >about your actual experience. Please tell us about the invitational bike rides you've organized.
> >> >Did yours ever win a national award? (Mine did, from the League of American Bicyclists.)
> >>
> >> <SNICKER> I don't play follow the leader.. I ride to get away from
> >> people, especially those kinds of people.
> >
> >And I'm sure lots of people are grateful!
> >
> >> >In fact, please tell us about the organized century rides you've attended. If you did have experience,
> >> >you'd know there's not much "telling people what to do" involved. There is lots of work choosing good
> >> >routes, marking routes, providing maps, organizing lunch and snack stops, providing support repairs, etc.
> >> >People choose whether or not to do the ride, whether or not to follow the route precisely, etc. and are
> >> >glad for the support. They are happy enough that they pay money for the privilege of riding the route.
> >> I want nothing to do with anybody that needs some organizer to plan
> >> their ride.
> >
> >Hah! Says the guy who rides only on bike paths, where not only the route but the entire facility is planned
> >by bureaucrats!
> >
> >SUCH a timid fellow!
> >
> >- Frank Krygowski
> It's so obvious that people who go on, and even pay for group rides do
> so for the social aspects. That and the fact that they assume that all
> their non-riding needs will be taken care of.
>
> I also note that camping on a bicycle is what real campers call a
> weenie roast.

Yet you give your opinions on bicycling when you ride only on a tricycle, only on a bike/pedestrian path?
Sorry if nobody is impressed.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> ... I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue
> Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
> have to visit any city.

A few years ago my friends and I attended a concert of folk music in a very large city. We ran
into a guitarist we knew and had occasionally played with. He informed us that he was carrying a
handgun.

To a folk music concert!

This gentleman was so obese that he couldn't hold a guitar in a normal manner. He had a special
stand that supported the guitar away from his immense belly. He also stopped playing with us
because he had personality conflicts with people.

Ever after, that's been the mental image I get of gun fetishists. Not a muscular Rambo "good guy
with a gun." Instead, slightly obnoxious, physically soft, overweight and very, very timid.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 6:45:35 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 03:07:21 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> > I would suggest if you think remote wilderness camping isn't doable on a bike, you don't have enough cycling experience to comment on such things (https://bikepacking.com/plog/easy-days-hard-days/)
> A quick look at that site tells me that those guys probably had
> support. I note most of the photos are around primitive roads. If I'm
> wrong, I'll be happy to amend my earlier comment, but still, it's a
> group event. Not my thing.

First, you're wrong. Second, "not my thing" is fine. You're a person of very limited physical
capability, so many, many activities will be "not your thing." That should not tempt you to
denigrate the activities that others are capable of.

About support: In all the thousands of miles of bike touring and camping I've done, my family
and I had "support" for just one week long event. The route was marked, campgrounds were
arranged and a truck carried our camping gear. Every other tour I did was self organized and
self contained, up to and including the 4000 mile trip.

When you can say you match that, your opinions will get my respect.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 18:46:07 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 7:00:57 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 15:36:51 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 4:50:54 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> >> On Mon, 12 Sep 2022 12:28:28 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
>> >> >> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >On Monday, September 12, 2022 at 1:30:42 PM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> >> >> >>
>> >> >> >> <LOL> Organizing group rides and camping add nothing to anyone's
>> >> >> >> biking courage and experience.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >If you had done bike camping, you would know you are wrong.
>> >> >> Bad assumption.
>> >> >
>> >> >Hmm. You're saying you wouldn't know you were wrong even if you _had_ done some bike
>> >> >camping? OK, that's more reasonable than most of what you've written.
>> >> >
>> >> >> >And organizing a multi-hundred
>> >> >> >rider event certainly does require experience and knowledge about cycling.
>> >> >> Nonsense, but it might require a desire to tell others what to do.
>> >> >
>> >> >It sounds like you're guessing based on zero experience.You're certainly being very closed mouth
>> >> >about your actual experience. Please tell us about the invitational bike rides you've organized.
>> >> >Did yours ever win a national award? (Mine did, from the League of American Bicyclists.)
>> >>
>> >> <SNICKER> I don't play follow the leader.. I ride to get away from
>> >> people, especially those kinds of people.
>> >
>> >And I'm sure lots of people are grateful!
>> >
>> >> >In fact, please tell us about the organized century rides you've attended. If you did have experience,
>> >> >you'd know there's not much "telling people what to do" involved. There is lots of work choosing good
>> >> >routes, marking routes, providing maps, organizing lunch and snack stops, providing support repairs, etc.
>> >> >People choose whether or not to do the ride, whether or not to follow the route precisely, etc. and are
>> >> >glad for the support. They are happy enough that they pay money for the privilege of riding the route.
>> >> I want nothing to do with anybody that needs some organizer to plan
>> >> their ride.
>> >
>> >Hah! Says the guy who rides only on bike paths, where not only the route but the entire facility is planned
>> >by bureaucrats!
>> >
>> >SUCH a timid fellow!
>> >
>> >- Frank Krygowski
>> It's so obvious that people who go on, and even pay for group rides do
>> so for the social aspects. That and the fact that they assume that all
>> their non-riding needs will be taken care of.
>>
>> I also note that camping on a bicycle is what real campers call a
>> weenie roast.
>
>Yet you give your opinions on bicycling when you ride only on a tricycle, only on a bike/pedestrian path?

<CHUCKLE> I probably have more miles on two wheelers on roads and
highways than you. I know I have more experience "camping," along with
many other activities that pencil pushing dweeb like you could never
accomplish.

>Sorry if nobody is impressed.

Unlike you folks with low self esteem, impressing a bunch of strangers
is not something I've ever tried to do.

By the way, I'm laughing mercilessly again at your foolish claim that
you speak for everybody.

>- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:22:05 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> ... I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue
>> Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
>> have to visit any city.
>
>A few years ago my friends and I attended a concert of folk music in a very large city. We ran
>into a guitarist we knew and had occasionally played with. He informed us that he was carrying a
>handgun.
>
>To a folk music concert!
>
>This gentleman was so obese that he couldn't hold a guitar in a normal manner. He had a special
>stand that supported the guitar away from his immense belly. He also stopped playing with us
>because he had personality conflicts with people.
>
>Ever after, that's been the mental image I get of gun fetishists. Not a muscular Rambo "good guy
>with a gun." Instead, slightly obnoxious, physically soft, overweight and very, very timid.
>
>- Frank Krygowski

You ran into a guy with a gun, he was fat, and he's stuck in your
memory? That's your story in a bicycle forum?

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:33:07 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@gmail.com> wrote:

>On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 6:45:35 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 03:07:21 -0700 (PDT), "funkma...@hotmail.com"
>> <funkma...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>> > I would suggest if you think remote wilderness camping isn't doable on a bike, you don't have enough cycling experience to comment on such things (https://bikepacking.com/plog/easy-days-hard-days/)
>> A quick look at that site tells me that those guys probably had
>> support. I note most of the photos are around primitive roads. If I'm
>> wrong, I'll be happy to amend my earlier comment, but still, it's a
>> group event. Not my thing.
>
>First, you're wrong. Second, "not my thing" is fine. You're a person of very limited physical
>capability, so many, many activities will be "not your thing." That should not tempt you to
>denigrate the activities that others are capable of.
>
>About support: In all the thousands of miles of bike touring and camping I've done, my family
>and I had "support" for just one week long event. The route was marked, campgrounds were
>arranged and a truck carried our camping gear. Every other tour I did was self organized and
>self contained, up to and including the 4000 mile trip.

<LOL> So, you pre-arranged campgrounds? Did you pre-arrange
campgrounds on this 4000 mile trip, too? Did you carry a little camp
stove to cook your weenies?

>When you can say you match that, your opinions will get my respect.

Good greif, Frankie, what on Earth makes you think getting your
"respect' is anywhere on my todo list?

>- Frank Krygowski

On 9/13/2022 10:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>> ... I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue
>> Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
>> have to visit any city.
>
> A few years ago my friends and I attended a concert of folk music in a very large city. We ran
> into a guitarist we knew and had occasionally played with. He informed us that he was carrying a
> handgun.
>
> To a folk music concert!
>
> This gentleman was so obese that he couldn't hold a guitar in a normal manner. He had a special
> stand that supported the guitar away from his immense belly. He also stopped playing with us
> because he had personality conflicts with people.
>
> Ever after, that's been the mental image I get of gun fetishists. Not a muscular Rambo "good guy
> with a gun." Instead, slightly obnoxious, physically soft, overweight and very, very timid.
>
> - Frank Krygowski
>

Like cyclists, firearm owners come in every shape and size
with widely variant political opinions and skill levels.
They greatly outnumber cyclists so variance is built in.

including women:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10865783/West-Virginia-woman-praised-using-pistol-shoot-dead-gunman-AR-15.html

including pregnant women:
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/home-invader-fatally-shot-florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-n1076026

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 11:33:24 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 08:14:49 -0700 (PDT), Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> > ... you give your opinions on bicycling when you ride only on a tricycle, only on a bike/pedestrian path?
>
> <CHUCKLE> I probably have more miles on two wheelers on roads and
> highways than you.

If so, why not answer my questions?

How long did you commute by bike?
What's your longest one-day ride?
How many century or century-plus rides have you done?
How many states have you ridden in? How many countries? How many cities?
How many bike tours have you completed?
What's your experience road racing? How about time trialing?

I can ask more relevant questions. But so far all you've mentioned is riding a tricycle on a MUP,
because you're afraid of traffic. That gives us no reason to even consider your opinions.

- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 13 Sep 2022 10:48:15 -0500, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 9/13/2022 10:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
>>> ... I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue
>>> Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
>>> have to visit any city.
>>
>> A few years ago my friends and I attended a concert of folk music in a very large city. We ran
>> into a guitarist we knew and had occasionally played with. He informed us that he was carrying a
>> handgun.
>>
>> To a folk music concert!
>>
>> This gentleman was so obese that he couldn't hold a guitar in a normal manner. He had a special
>> stand that supported the guitar away from his immense belly. He also stopped playing with us
>> because he had personality conflicts with people.
>>
>> Ever after, that's been the mental image I get of gun fetishists. Not a muscular Rambo "good guy
>> with a gun." Instead, slightly obnoxious, physically soft, overweight and very, very timid.
>>
>> - Frank Krygowski
>>
>
>Like cyclists, firearm owners come in every shape and size
>with widely variant political opinions and skill levels.
>They greatly outnumber cyclists so variance is built in.
>
>including women:
>https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10865783/West-Virginia-woman-praised-using-pistol-shoot-dead-gunman-AR-15.html
>
>including pregnant women:
>https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/home-invader-fatally-shot-florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-n1076026

My mother and Grandmother were crack shots with a .22 rifle. My
Grandma also had a Winchester 94 30.30 and a Colt .45 Long. My
daughter has a US Army marksmanship badge.

On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 11:48:21 AM UTC-4, AMuzi wrote:
> On 9/13/2022 10:22 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On Tuesday, September 13, 2022 at 5:40:42 AM UTC-4, Catrike Rider wrote:
> >> ... I'm a registered Republican and I often wear a Blue
> >> Lives Matter cap and always carry a gun on my bike rides and when I
> >> have to visit any city.
> >
> > A few years ago my friends and I attended a concert of folk music in a very large city. We ran
> > into a guitarist we knew and had occasionally played with. He informed us that he was carrying a
> > handgun.
> >
> > To a folk music concert!
> >
> > This gentleman was so obese that he couldn't hold a guitar in a normal manner. He had a special
> > stand that supported the guitar away from his immense belly. He also stopped playing with us
> > because he had personality conflicts with people.
> >
> > Ever after, that's been the mental image I get of gun fetishists. Not a muscular Rambo "good guy
> > with a gun." Instead, slightly obnoxious, physically soft, overweight and very, very timid.
> >
> > - Frank Krygowski
> >
> Like cyclists, firearm owners come in every shape and size
> with widely variant political opinions and skill levels.
> They greatly outnumber cyclists so variance is built in.
>
> including women:
> https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-10865783/West-Virginia-woman-praised-using-pistol-shoot-dead-gunman-AR-15.html
>
> including pregnant women:
> https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/home-invader-fatally-shot-florida-pregnant-woman-ar-15-n1076026

As I've mentioned before, I appreciate the thoughtful use of normal curves. Every normal curve
has two tails, and at those extremes there are very unusual cases or events. Those unusual cases don't
invalidate the vast majority at the center of the curve.

Among the handgun carriers I've met and talked with, the most common characteristic has
been fear, or timidity. I think that's the characteristic that defines the bulk of handgun carriers.
"I'm afraid, so I'm taking a gun with me."

I can give other examples - like the woman working as an EMT who told us "I take calls in some really bad
neighborhoods!" Well, my wife worked as a therapist, visiting people from wealthy suburbs to rural zones
to those same inner city neighborhoods. She never even thought of carrying a handgun.

- Frank Krygowski