On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>
>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
>
> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
>
> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
>
> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
>
> However, that is precisely what he did

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
> >>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
> >>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
> >>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
> >>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
> >>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
> >>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
> >>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>
> >>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
> >
> > I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
> >
> > I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
> >
> > I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
> >
> > However, that is precisely what he did
> No, that was a false accusation of PJ Ross's (and, now, yours). The
> alleged plagiaized poem that PJ Ross claimed I'd posted never existed.
> When that was not just pointed out but proven, he simply made up a story
> that I'd "deleted" it (not just from Google groups, but from all of
> usenet).
> > , and raking it over the coals, yet another time, does nothing to improve his reputation.
> Actually, I think allowing bogus allegations like the above one go
> unanswered would be far worse for my reputation.

On 2022-11-01 5:31 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
>> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
>
> Funny who the whippin' fools cannot provide proof. But who needs proof when they know they, like Trump, can get away with lying and misrepresenting!

You're doing the same thing you're complaining about Zod doing,
Ashtroll: accusing him of "lying" but not even trying to provide proof.

Why do you constantly complain about others doing the same things you do
yourself?

That's a rhetorical question, of course; because that's what you do, you
suspect everyone else of doing the same things.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:57:28 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-01 5:31 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
> >
> > Funny who the whippin' fools cannot provide proof. But who needs proof when they know they, like Trump, can get away with lying and misrepresenting!
> You're doing the same thing you're complaining about Zod doing,
> Ashtroll: accusing him of "lying" but not even trying to provide proof.

You're playing another semantic game here, George (to no one's surprise).

Stink accused PJR of telling lies without providing any evidence. From a legal standpoint, PJR is innocent until proven guilty. Since Stink has failed to provide even one shred of evidence, one is forced to conclude that Stink is lying.

*Stink's lie becomes even more apparent when one takes Stink's predilection for scouring the archives into account. If there were any evidence of PJR's lying, one would expect Stink to jump at the chance of providing it.

> Why do you constantly complain about others doing the same things you do
> yourself?
>
> That's a rhetorical question, of course; because that's what you do, you
> suspect everyone else of doing the same things.

Again, Stink's lie (in this thread) is determined by his lack of supporting evidence. Ash is merely labeling Stink's lie for what it is.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:57:28 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-01 5:31 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
> >
> > Funny who the whippin' fools cannot provide proof. But who needs proof when they know they, like Trump, can get away with lying and misrepresenting!
> You're doing the same thing you're complaining about Zod doing,
> Ashtroll: accusing him of "lying" but not even trying to provide proof.
>
> Why do you constantly complain about others doing the same things you do
> yourself?
>
> That's a rhetorical question, of course; because that's what you do, you
> suspect everyone else of doing the same things.

And why do you also do what you say is so wrong, George Dance?
Like grossly misrepresenting (paraphrasing you, such a superior person so lamely excuse) my words.
You sold your dignity to help your cash cow dominate this group as his personal "work" promotion place.
You're hardly superior, you're as lowly as the worst Usenet troll, and I now believe some of the accusations against you because you personally proved them with your behavior here.

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>
>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
>>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
>>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
>>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
>>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>
>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
>>
>> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
>>
>> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
>>
>> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
>>
>> However, that is precisely what he did

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 10:25:04 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
>
> > On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
> >>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
> >>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
> >>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
> >>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
> >>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
> >>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
> >>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>>
> >>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
> >>
> >> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
> >>
> >> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
> >>
> >> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
> >>
> >> However, that is precisely what he did
>
>
> > No, that was a false accusation of PJ Ross's (and, now, yours). The
> > alleged plagiaized poem that PJ Ross claimed I'd posted never existed.
> > When that was not just pointed out but proven, he simply made up a story
> > that I'd "deleted" it (not just from Google groups, but from all of
> > usenet).
>
>
> >> , and raking it over the coals, yet another time, does nothing to improve his reputation.
>
>
> > Actually, I think allowing bogus allegations like the above one go
> > unanswered would be far worse for my reputation.
> Yes, correct the lies and misrepresentations and set the record straight, in other words.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:39:16 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-10-26 5:11 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 1:54:10 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:50:32 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>> On 2022-10-22 10:03 a.m., NancyGene wrote:
> >>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>> On 2022-10-21 12:58 p.m., NancyGene wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> >>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
> >>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
> >>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
> >>>>> muse?
> >>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
> >>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
> >>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands.
> >>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
> >>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
> >>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
> >>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
> >>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
> >>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem."
> >>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
> >>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
> >>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
> >>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet.
> >>>> Should she have?
> >>>
> >>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
> >> As Nancy G. demonstrates with each and every day here...
> >
> > Funny how NancyGene has not mentioned plagiarism in this thread.
> >
> > George Dance wrongly insinuated that she was going to accuse him of plagiarism
>
>
> That would be typical NG behavior; as you should remember, they've done
> that in other literary discussions. For example, in the "glass houses"
> discussion where they pulled that exact stunt on me. (Given your claimed
> excellent memory, I won't bother to quot from that discussion.)
>
>
> , and you and your Donkey are (predictably) behaving as if she had.
> >
>
> They're as aware as I am that it's a typical NG troll stunt.

Yes, NancyGene makes no secret of her malicious agenda.

> > I think the "demonstration" has been made inescapably clear.

On 2022-11-02 9:43 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-11-01 3:55 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:29:41 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Trolling snipped xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>>> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
>>>
>>> Has he?
>>>
>>> PP or STFU.
>> One good example is "Peter's accusation" that you just mentioned. I'm
>> just going by memory, but since remember it so well, I don't think I
>> have to dig up an old post for you.
>>
>> "Peter's accusation" was that I took a (claimed) poem of his and
>> published it under my own name, with only the character's name, "Batty,"
>> changed. As you also should remember, I spent considerable time with you
>> on a long thread, showing exactly all the steps in the evolution of
>> "Penny, or Penny's Hat," and proving that the alleged plagiarism never
>> happened.
>
> Unfortunately, for you, you only ended up supporting Peter's accusation.
>
> You place far too much stock in your "debunking" skills.
>
> I have read both "Betty's" and "Batty's" poems, and there is no *significant* difference between them.
>
> You changed one letter in the title character's name, and one or two words (if that) in each of PJR's lines.
>
> The only distinguishing factor was that PJR's poem only listed a couple of colors, whereas your poem expanded the list of colors into the dozens (hundreds?, thousands?).
>
> But the additional colors did not *significantly* alter the content of the poem. The hat was still red, not yellow, and still Batty's/Betty's.
>
> Here's the proof:
>
> From rec.arts.poems ("Batty / PJR)
>
> On Friday, November 20, 2009 at 7:12:12 PM UTC-5, Peter J Ross wrote:
>> Batty's red woollen hat is a good hat.
>> It's a hat that isn't yellow, it's just a hat
>> that's red. It warms his ears, Batty's ears,
>> not mine, not yours.
>> --
>> PJR :-)
>> <http://pjr.lasnobberia.net/verse/>
>
> Then George Dance grabbed the poem for his very own:
>
> On Thursday, November 26, 2009 at 9:53:44 PM UTC-5, George J. Dance wrote:
>> On Nov 24, 9:57 pm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> On Nov 24, 9:29 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hell, if we get rid of "Batty", we can cut PJ out of the credits, too,
>>>> and put you in. (Of course we have to change 'his' to 'her' in the
>>>> last line. Let's see what ray thinks.
>>>
>>> That sounds like an interesting & intelligent idea to me...
>>>
>> BTW, I checked out Colin's reference, in his 'worst poet' message you
>> quoted upthread, "that one of the best online poets around has joined
>> this discussion. We are in the presence of greatness, people!" That
>> has to be a reference to ray heinrich (who posted onto the thread, but
>> didn't pick a worst poet).
>> So I'm starting to doubt that ray will be willing to get involved in
>> this project. But I'll keep plugging along, nevertheless.
>> For this latest edit, I dropped the Dance Mix subtitle, and I added
>> more colours: Rice's, then whatever I could remember on my own, then
>> the HTML colour names. If you could think of any colours we've missed,
>> that would be great, too.
>>
>> Betty
>> Betty's hat is a good hat.
>> It's a Red wool hat.
>> It isn't Alabaster or Alice Blue
>> or Almond or Amber
>> or Amethyst or Antique Brass
>> or Apple Green or Apricot
>> or Aqua or Aquamarine
>> or Asparagus or Atomic Tangerine
>> or Auburn or Azure
>> or Baby Blue or Baby Pink
>> or Banana Mania or Beaver
>> or Beige or Bittersweet
>> or Black or Blizzard Blue
>> or Blue or Blue Bell
>> or Blue Gray or Blue Green
>> or Blue Violet or Blush
>> or Brick Red or Bronze
>> or Brown or Burgundy
>> or Burnt Orange or Burnt Sienna
>> or Cadet Blue or Canary
>> or Caribbean Green or Carnation Pink
>> or Cerise or Cerulean
>> or Champagne or Charcoal
>> or Chartreuse or Chestnut
>> or Chocolate or Cinnamon
>> or Claret or Cobalt
>> or Copper or Coral
>> or Corn or Cornflower
>> or Cotton Candy or Cream
>> or Cyan or Dandelion
>> or Denim or Desert Sand
>> or Ebony or Ecru
>> or Eggplant or Eggshell
>> or Electric Lime or Emerald
>> or Fawn or Fern
>> or Fire Engine Red or Forest Green
>> or Fuchsia or Fuzzy Wuzzy
>> or Gold or Goldenrod
>> or Granny Smith Apple or Gray
>> or Green or Green Blue
>> or Green Yellow or Honey Dew
>> or Hot Magenta or Hunter Green
>> or Inchworm or Indigo
>> or Ivory or Jade
>> or Jazzberry Jam or Jungle Green
>> or Kelly Green or Khaki
>> or Laser Lemon or Lavender
>> or Lawn Green or Lemon Yellow
>> or Lilac or Macaroni and Cheese
>> or Magenta or Magnola
>> or Magic Mint or Mahogany
>> or Maize or Manatee
>> or Mango Tango or Maroon
>> or Mauvelous or Melon
>> or Midnight Blue or Moss Green
>> or Mountain Meadow or Mulberry
>> or Mustard or Navy Blue
>> or Neon Carrot or Ochre
>> or Olive Drab or Olive Green
>> or Orange or Orange Red
>> or Orange Yellow or Orchid
>> or Outer Space or Outrageous Orange
>> or Pacific Blue or Peach
>> or Pear or Pearl
>> or Periwinkle or Persimmon
>> or Piggy Pink or Pine Green
>> or Pink Flamingo or Pink Sherbert
>> or Platinum or Plum
>> or Power Blue or Primrose
>> or Puce or Pumpkin
>> or Purple Heart or Purple Mountain's Majesty
>> or Purple Pizzazz or Radical Red
>> or Raspberry or Raw Sienna
>> or Raw Umber or Razzle Dazzle Rose
>> or Razzmatazz or Red Orange
>> or Red Violet or Robin's Egg Blue
>> or Rose or Royal Blue
>> or Royal Purple or Ruby
>> or Russet or Rust
>> or Saffron or Salmon
>> or Sapphire or Scarlet
>> or Screamin' Green or Sea Green
>> or Sepia or Shadow
>> or Shamrock or Shocking Pink
>> or Silver or Sky Blue
>> or Slate or Sorrel
>> or Spring Green or Steel Blue
>> or Sunglow or Sunset Orange
>> or Tan or Taupe
>> or Teal Blue or Terracotta
>> or Thistle or Tickle Me Pink
>> or Timberwolf or Titian
>> or Topaz or Tropical Rain Forest
>> or Tumbleweed or Turquoise Blue
>> or Ultramarine or Umber
>> or Unmellow Yellow or Vermilion
>> or Violet (Purple) or Violet Blue
>> or Violet Red or Vivid Tangerine
>> or Vivid Violet or White
>> or Wild Blue Yonder or Wild Strawberry
>> or Wild Watermelon or Wisteria
>> or Yellow or Yellow Green
>> or Yellow Orange or Zinnober
>> but just a hat that's Red.
>> It warms her ears, just Betty's ears.
>> poem by ray heinrich, George Dance, & Will Dockery
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/K35lTXRHQZI/m/gnu0G2_wAwAJ?hl=en

On 2022-11-02 10:25 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> George J. Dance wrote:
>
>> On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
>>>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
>>>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
>>>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
>>>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>>
>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
>>>
>>> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
>>>
>>> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
>>>
>>> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
>>>
>>> However, that is precisely what he did
>
>
>> No, that was a false accusation of PJ Ross's (and, now, yours). The
>> alleged plagiaized poem that PJ Ross claimed I'd posted never existed.
>> When that was not just pointed out but proven, he simply made up a story
>> that I'd "deleted" it (not just from Google groups, but from all of
>> usenet).
>
>
>>> , and raking it over the coals, yet another time, does nothing to improve his reputation.
>
>
>> Actually, I think allowing bogus allegations like the above one go
>> unanswered would be far worse for my reputation.
>
> Yes, correct the lies and misrepresentations and set the record straight, in other words.
>

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 10:58:47 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:39:16 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On 2022-10-26 5:11 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 4:35:14 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> > >> On Wednesday, October 26, 2022 at 1:54:10 AM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:50:32 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo..ca wrote:
> > >>>>> On 2022-10-22 10:03 a.m., NancyGene wrote:
> > >>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george...@yahoo..ca wrote:
> > >>>>>>> On 2022-10-21 12:58 p.m., NancyGene wrote:
> > >>>>>>>> On Friday, October 21, 2022 at 4:47:48 PM UTC, Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>> On Wednesday, October 19, 2022 at 9:48:09 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> > >>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> > >>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> > >>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> > >>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> > >>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> > >>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> > >>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> > >>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> > >>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> > >>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> > >>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> > >>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> > >>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> > >>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> > >>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> > >>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> > >>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> > >>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> > >>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> > >>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> > >>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> > >>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> > >>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> > >>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> > >>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> > >>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> ~~
> > >>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> > >>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> > >>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> > >>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
> > >>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
> > >>>>>>
> > >>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
> > >>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
> > >>>>> muse?
> > >>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
> > >>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
> > >>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands.
> > >>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
> > >>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
> > >>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
> > >>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
> > >>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
> > >>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
> > >>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem."
> > >>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
> > >>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
> > >>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
> > >>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet.
> > >>>> Should she have?
> > >>>
> > >>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
> > >> As Nancy G. demonstrates with each and every day here...
> > >
> > > Funny how NancyGene has not mentioned plagiarism in this thread.
> > >
> > > George Dance wrongly insinuated that she was going to accuse him of plagiarism
> >
> >
> > That would be typical NG behavior; as you should remember, they've done
> > that in other literary discussions. For example, in the "glass houses"
> > discussion where they pulled that exact stunt on me. (Given your claimed
> > excellent memory, I won't bother to quot from that discussion.)
> >
> >
> > , and you and your Donkey are (predictably) behaving as if she had.
> > >
> >
> > They're as aware as I am that it's a typical NG troll stunt.
> Yes, NancyGene makes no secret of her malicious agenda.

And your agenda is right out in open plain as day, you brazenly post edit, just like a Trump, tampering with the record that you revised as your so called "corrected" record. You're just like Abbot and DeSantis (who Dance has defended), trying to write minorities' grievances and struggles, as well as the LGBT+ community out of school textbooks.

> > > I think the "demonstration" has been made inescapably clear.

On 2022-11-02 10:12 a.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:57:28 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-11-01 5:31 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>>> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
>>>
>>> Funny who the whippin' fools cannot provide proof. But who needs proof when they know they, like Trump, can get away with lying and misrepresenting!
>> You're doing the same thing you're complaining about Zod doing,
>> Ashtroll: accusing him of "lying" but not even trying to provide proof.
>>
>> Why do you constantly complain about others doing the same things you do
>> yourself?
>>
>> That's a rhetorical question, of course; because that's what you do, you
>> suspect everyone else of doing the same things.
>
> And why do you also do what you say is so wrong, George Dance?
> Like grossly misrepresenting (paraphrasing you, such a superior person so lamely excuse) my words.

You havn't 'paraphrased' anything, stupid troll. You merely accused me
of the same thing you accused Zod of, but didn't supply any "words" of
mine to back up your claim.

> You sold your dignity to help your cash cow dominate this group as his personal "work" promotion place.

Whatever; you sold yours for a chance to "collaborate" with someone you
thought was a "real poet", Chimp Obsesso.

> You're hardly superior,

I'm certainly superior to you in some things. Morally and ethically, for
one: you constantly lie and bullshit for the win, while I stick to
telling the truth.

> you're as lowly as > the worst Usenet troll, and I now believe some of the accusations against you because you personally proved them with your behavior here.

Given that you're a proven liar and bullshitter, there's no reason to
think you actually believe any of them. It's more likely you're lying
and bullshitting about that for a win, too.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:04:15 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-02 9:43 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-11-01 3:55 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:29:41 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Trolling snipped xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >>>> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
> >>>
> >>> Has he?
> >>>
> >>> PP or STFU.
> >> One good example is "Peter's accusation" that you just mentioned. I'm
> >> just going by memory, but since remember it so well, I don't think I
> >> have to dig up an old post for you.
> >>
> >> "Peter's accusation" was that I took a (claimed) poem of his and
> >> published it under my own name, with only the character's name, "Batty,"
> >> changed. As you also should remember, I spent considerable time with you
> >> on a long thread, showing exactly all the steps in the evolution of
> >> "Penny, or Penny's Hat," and proving that the alleged plagiarism never
> >> happened.
> >
> > Unfortunately, for you, you only ended up supporting Peter's accusation..
> >
> > You place far too much stock in your "debunking" skills.
> >
> > I have read both "Betty's" and "Batty's" poems, and there is no *significant* difference between them.
> >
> > You changed one letter in the title character's name, and one or two words (if that) in each of PJR's lines.
> >
> > The only distinguishing factor was that PJR's poem only listed a couple of colors, whereas your poem expanded the list of colors into the dozens (hundreds?, thousands?).
> >
> > But the additional colors did not *significantly* alter the content of the poem. The hat was still red, not yellow, and still Batty's/Betty's.
> >
> > Here's the proof:
> >
> > From rec.arts.poems ("Batty / PJR)
> >
> > On Friday, November 20, 2009 at 7:12:12 PM UTC-5, Peter J Ross wrote:
> >> Batty's red woollen hat is a good hat.
> >> It's a hat that isn't yellow, it's just a hat
> >> that's red. It warms his ears, Batty's ears,
> >> not mine, not yours.
> >> --
> >> PJR :-)
> >> <http://pjr.lasnobberia.net/verse/>
> >
> > Then George Dance grabbed the poem for his very own:
> >
> > On Thursday, November 26, 2009 at 9:53:44 PM UTC-5, George J. Dance wrote:
> >> On Nov 24, 9:57 pm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>> On Nov 24, 9:29 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> Hell, if we get rid of "Batty", we can cut PJ out of the credits, too,
> >>>> and put you in. (Of course we have to change 'his' to 'her' in the
> >>>> last line. Let's see what ray thinks.
> >>>
> >>> That sounds like an interesting & intelligent idea to me...
> >>>
> >> BTW, I checked out Colin's reference, in his 'worst poet' message you
> >> quoted upthread, "that one of the best online poets around has joined
> >> this discussion. We are in the presence of greatness, people!" That
> >> has to be a reference to ray heinrich (who posted onto the thread, but
> >> didn't pick a worst poet).
> >> So I'm starting to doubt that ray will be willing to get involved in
> >> this project. But I'll keep plugging along, nevertheless.
> >> For this latest edit, I dropped the Dance Mix subtitle, and I added
> >> more colours: Rice's, then whatever I could remember on my own, then
> >> the HTML colour names. If you could think of any colours we've missed,
> >> that would be great, too.
> >>
> >> Betty
> >> Betty's hat is a good hat.
> >> It's a Red wool hat.
> >> It isn't Alabaster or Alice Blue
> >> or Almond or Amber
> >> or Amethyst or Antique Brass
> >> or Apple Green or Apricot
> >> or Aqua or Aquamarine
> >> or Asparagus or Atomic Tangerine
> >> or Auburn or Azure
> >> or Baby Blue or Baby Pink
> >> or Banana Mania or Beaver
> >> or Beige or Bittersweet
> >> or Black or Blizzard Blue
> >> or Blue or Blue Bell
> >> or Blue Gray or Blue Green
> >> or Blue Violet or Blush
> >> or Brick Red or Bronze
> >> or Brown or Burgundy
> >> or Burnt Orange or Burnt Sienna
> >> or Cadet Blue or Canary
> >> or Caribbean Green or Carnation Pink
> >> or Cerise or Cerulean
> >> or Champagne or Charcoal
> >> or Chartreuse or Chestnut
> >> or Chocolate or Cinnamon
> >> or Claret or Cobalt
> >> or Copper or Coral
> >> or Corn or Cornflower
> >> or Cotton Candy or Cream
> >> or Cyan or Dandelion
> >> or Denim or Desert Sand
> >> or Ebony or Ecru
> >> or Eggplant or Eggshell
> >> or Electric Lime or Emerald
> >> or Fawn or Fern
> >> or Fire Engine Red or Forest Green
> >> or Fuchsia or Fuzzy Wuzzy
> >> or Gold or Goldenrod
> >> or Granny Smith Apple or Gray
> >> or Green or Green Blue
> >> or Green Yellow or Honey Dew
> >> or Hot Magenta or Hunter Green
> >> or Inchworm or Indigo
> >> or Ivory or Jade
> >> or Jazzberry Jam or Jungle Green
> >> or Kelly Green or Khaki
> >> or Laser Lemon or Lavender
> >> or Lawn Green or Lemon Yellow
> >> or Lilac or Macaroni and Cheese
> >> or Magenta or Magnola
> >> or Magic Mint or Mahogany
> >> or Maize or Manatee
> >> or Mango Tango or Maroon
> >> or Mauvelous or Melon
> >> or Midnight Blue or Moss Green
> >> or Mountain Meadow or Mulberry
> >> or Mustard or Navy Blue
> >> or Neon Carrot or Ochre
> >> or Olive Drab or Olive Green
> >> or Orange or Orange Red
> >> or Orange Yellow or Orchid
> >> or Outer Space or Outrageous Orange
> >> or Pacific Blue or Peach
> >> or Pear or Pearl
> >> or Periwinkle or Persimmon
> >> or Piggy Pink or Pine Green
> >> or Pink Flamingo or Pink Sherbert
> >> or Platinum or Plum
> >> or Power Blue or Primrose
> >> or Puce or Pumpkin
> >> or Purple Heart or Purple Mountain's Majesty
> >> or Purple Pizzazz or Radical Red
> >> or Raspberry or Raw Sienna
> >> or Raw Umber or Razzle Dazzle Rose
> >> or Razzmatazz or Red Orange
> >> or Red Violet or Robin's Egg Blue
> >> or Rose or Royal Blue
> >> or Royal Purple or Ruby
> >> or Russet or Rust
> >> or Saffron or Salmon
> >> or Sapphire or Scarlet
> >> or Screamin' Green or Sea Green
> >> or Sepia or Shadow
> >> or Shamrock or Shocking Pink
> >> or Silver or Sky Blue
> >> or Slate or Sorrel
> >> or Spring Green or Steel Blue
> >> or Sunglow or Sunset Orange
> >> or Tan or Taupe
> >> or Teal Blue or Terracotta
> >> or Thistle or Tickle Me Pink
> >> or Timberwolf or Titian
> >> or Topaz or Tropical Rain Forest
> >> or Tumbleweed or Turquoise Blue
> >> or Ultramarine or Umber
> >> or Unmellow Yellow or Vermilion
> >> or Violet (Purple) or Violet Blue
> >> or Violet Red or Vivid Tangerine
> >> or Vivid Violet or White
> >> or Wild Blue Yonder or Wild Strawberry
> >> or Wild Watermelon or Wisteria
> >> or Yellow or Yellow Green
> >> or Yellow Orange or Zinnober
> >> but just a hat that's Red.
> >> It warms her ears, just Betty's ears.
> >> poem by ray heinrich, George Dance, & Will Dockery
> >
> > https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/K35lTXRHQZI/m/gnu0G2_wAwAJ?hl=en
> On 2022-11-02 9:43 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-4,
> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-11-01 3:55 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>
> >> "Peter's accusation" was that I took a (claimed) poem of his and
> >> published it under my own name, with only the character's name, "Batty,"
> >> changed. As you also should remember, I spent considerable time with you
> >> on a long thread, showing exactly all the steps in the evolution of
> >> "Penny, or Penny's Hat," and proving that the alleged plagiarism never
> >> happened.
> >
> > Unfortunately, for you, you only ended up supporting Peter's accusation..
> You're simply repeating the same bogus charge. You agree with yourself;
> whoo-de-doo!

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:10:16 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-02 10:25 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> > George J. Dance wrote:
> >
> >> On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
> >>>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
> >>>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
> >>>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
> >>>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
> >>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>>>
> >>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >>>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
> >>>
> >>> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
> >>>
> >>> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
> >>>
> >>> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
> >>>
> >>> However, that is precisely what he did
> >
> >
> >> No, that was a false accusation of PJ Ross's (and, now, yours). The
> >> alleged plagiaized poem that PJ Ross claimed I'd posted never existed.
> >> When that was not just pointed out but proven, he simply made up a story
> >> that I'd "deleted" it (not just from Google groups, but from all of
> >> usenet).
> >
> >
> >>> , and raking it over the coals, yet another time, does nothing to improve his reputation.
> >
> >
> >> Actually, I think allowing bogus allegations like the above one go
> >> unanswered would be far worse for my reputation.
> >
> > Yes, correct the lies and misrepresentations and set the record straight, in other words.
> >
> Indeed. I don't get to do that with the Chimp's stories about you (since
> you don't want me writing the details of your life), or of Michael's
> false story about Ilya (since he doesn't want me writing about that) --

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:25:12 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-02 10:12 a.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:57:28 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-11-01 5:31 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >>>> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
> >>>
> >>> Funny who the whippin' fools cannot provide proof. But who needs proof when they know they, like Trump, can get away with lying and misrepresenting!
> >> You're doing the same thing you're complaining about Zod doing,
> >> Ashtroll: accusing him of "lying" but not even trying to provide proof.
> >>
> >> Why do you constantly complain about others doing the same things you do
> >> yourself?
> >>
> >> That's a rhetorical question, of course; because that's what you do, you
> >> suspect everyone else of doing the same things.
> >
> > And why do you also do what you say is so wrong, George Dance?
> > Like grossly misrepresenting (paraphrasing you, such a superior person so lamely excuse) my words.
> You havn't 'paraphrased' anything, stupid troll. You merely accused me
> of the same thing you accused Zod of, but didn't supply any "words" of
> mine to back up your claim.
> > You sold your dignity to help your cash cow dominate this group as his personal "work" promotion place.
> Whatever; you sold yours for a chance to "collaborate" with someone you
> thought was a "real poet", Chimp Obsesso.
>
>
> > You're hardly superior,
>
>
> I'm certainly superior to you in some things. Morally and ethically, for
> one: you constantly lie and bullshit for the win, while I stick to
> telling the truth.
> > you're as lowly as > the worst Usenet troll, and I now believe some of the accusations against you because you personally proved them with your behavior here.
> Given that you're a proven liar and bullshitter, there's no reason to
> think you actually believe any of them. It's more likely you're lying
> and bullshitting about that for a win, too.

You and your misrepresenting troll posse have yet to prove anything! The jury has been waiting forever and all you have presented to them is how much of a moral monster you are!!

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:25:12 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-02 10:12 a.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:57:28 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-11-01 5:31 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> >>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >>>> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
> >>>
> >>> Funny who the whippin' fools cannot provide proof. But who needs proof when they know they, like Trump, can get away with lying and misrepresenting!
> >> You're doing the same thing you're complaining about Zod doing,
> >> Ashtroll: accusing him of "lying" but not even trying to provide proof.
> >>
> >> Why do you constantly complain about others doing the same things you do
> >> yourself?
> >>
> >> That's a rhetorical question, of course; because that's what you do, you
> >> suspect everyone else of doing the same things.
> >
> > And why do you also do what you say is so wrong, George Dance?
> > Like grossly misrepresenting (paraphrasing you, such a superior person so lamely excuse) my words.
> You havn't 'paraphrased' anything, stupid troll. You merely accused me
> of the same thing you accused Zod of, but didn't supply any "words" of
> mine to back up your claim.

George, George, George... [shakes head]. If you're going to call someone "stupid," it behooves you to spellcheck your statement prior to posting it.

Failure to do so makes one look like a... dunce.

> > You sold your dignity to help your cash cow dominate this group as his personal "work" promotion place.
> Whatever; you sold yours for a chance to "collaborate" with someone you
> thought was a "real poet", Chimp Obsesso.

You had obviously sold your dignity prior to my arrival here, George (as evidenced by the comments of PJR, Aratzio, Cujo, and others regarding you).

Ash, otoh, had just as obviously remained neutral in the celebrated Donkey Wars, until the Donkey and his Stink began attacking him. Slapping down one's enemies is hardly "selling out."
> > You're hardly superior,
>
>
> I'm certainly superior to you in some things. Morally and ethically, for
> one: you constantly lie and bullshit for the win, while I stick to
> telling the truth.

No, George, you don't.

You may believe you're telling the truth, but you are not.

A comparison of "Penny's Hat" with "Batty's" makes it abundantly clear that you stole PJR's poem almost word-for-word, yet you continually deny it.

You also are known for your dishonest "strawman" arguments, wherein you falsely attribute a reworded statement to your selected "opponent," and proceed to argue against it.

> > you're as lowly as > the worst Usenet troll, and I now believe some of the accusations against you because you personally proved them with your behavior here.
> Given that you're a proven liar and bullshitter, there's no reason to
> think you actually believe any of them. It's more likely you're lying
> and bullshitting about that for a win, too.

You say that Ash is a *proven* liar and bullshitter, yet decline to provide any evidence to back up your claim.

AFAIC, your failure to support your claims renders them untrue, and makes you both a liar and a bullshitter for having made them.

When it comes to accusing others on Usenet, you know the rules: PP or STFU.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:25 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> > >> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >>
> > >>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
> > >>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
> > >>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
> > >>>>>>>>>
> > >>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
> > >>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
> > >>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
> > >>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
> > >>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
> > >>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
> > >>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> > >>
> > >>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> > >> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
> > >
> > > I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
> > >
> > > I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
> > >
> > > I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
> > >
> > > However, that is precisely what he did
> > No, that was a false accusation of PJ Ross's (and, now, yours). The
> > alleged plagiaized poem that PJ Ross claimed I'd posted never existed.
> > When that was not just pointed out but proven, he simply made up a story
> > that I'd "deleted" it (not just from Google groups, but from all of
> > usenet).
> > > , and raking it over the coals, yet another time, does nothing to improve his reputation.
> > Actually, I think allowing bogus allegations like the above one go
> > unanswered would be far worse for my reputation.
> You should have heeded my advice to Stink,.
>
> The accusations are both inescapably correct -- and damning. Especially your comment to Will: "Hell, if we get rid of 'Batty', we can cut PJ out of the credits, too, and put you in. (Of course we have to change 'his' to 'her' in the last line. Let's see what ray thinks."

On 2022-11-02 11:31 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:04:15 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-11-02 9:43 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>> On 2022-11-01 3:55 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:29:41 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>>>> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Trolling snipped xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
>>>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>>>>> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
>>>>>
>>>>> Has he?
>>>>>
>>>>> PP or STFU.
>>>> One good example is "Peter's accusation" that you just mentioned. I'm
>>>> just going by memory, but since remember it so well, I don't think I
>>>> have to dig up an old post for you.
>>>>
>>>> "Peter's accusation" was that I took a (claimed) poem of his and
>>>> published it under my own name, with only the character's name, "Batty,"
>>>> changed. As you also should remember, I spent considerable time with you
>>>> on a long thread, showing exactly all the steps in the evolution of
>>>> "Penny, or Penny's Hat," and proving that the alleged plagiarism never
>>>> happened.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, for you, you only ended up supporting Peter's accusation.
>>>
>>> You place far too much stock in your "debunking" skills.
>>>
>>> I have read both "Betty's" and "Batty's" poems, and there is no *significant* difference between them.
>>>
>>> You changed one letter in the title character's name, and one or two words (if that) in each of PJR's lines.
>>>
>>> The only distinguishing factor was that PJR's poem only listed a couple of colors, whereas your poem expanded the list of colors into the dozens (hundreds?, thousands?).
>>>
>>> But the additional colors did not *significantly* alter the content of the poem. The hat was still red, not yellow, and still Batty's/Betty's.
>>>
>>> Here's the proof:
>>>
>>> From rec.arts.poems ("Batty / PJR)
>>>
>>> On Friday, November 20, 2009 at 7:12:12 PM UTC-5, Peter J Ross wrote:
>>>> Batty's red woollen hat is a good hat.
>>>> It's a hat that isn't yellow, it's just a hat
>>>> that's red. It warms his ears, Batty's ears,
>>>> not mine, not yours.
>>>> --
>>>> PJR :-)
>>>> <http://pjr.lasnobberia.net/verse/>
>>>
>>> Then George Dance grabbed the poem for his very own:
>>>
>>> On Thursday, November 26, 2009 at 9:53:44 PM UTC-5, George J. Dance wrote:
>>>> On Nov 24, 9:57 pm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Nov 24, 9:29 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Hell, if we get rid of "Batty", we can cut PJ out of the credits, too,
>>>>>> and put you in. (Of course we have to change 'his' to 'her' in the
>>>>>> last line. Let's see what ray thinks.
>>>>>
>>>>> That sounds like an interesting & intelligent idea to me...
>>>>>
>>>> BTW, I checked out Colin's reference, in his 'worst poet' message you
>>>> quoted upthread, "that one of the best online poets around has joined
>>>> this discussion. We are in the presence of greatness, people!" That
>>>> has to be a reference to ray heinrich (who posted onto the thread, but
>>>> didn't pick a worst poet).
>>>> So I'm starting to doubt that ray will be willing to get involved in
>>>> this project. But I'll keep plugging along, nevertheless.
>>>> For this latest edit, I dropped the Dance Mix subtitle, and I added
>>>> more colours: Rice's, then whatever I could remember on my own, then
>>>> the HTML colour names. If you could think of any colours we've missed,
>>>> that would be great, too.
>>>>
>>>> Betty
>>>> Betty's hat is a good hat.
>>>> It's a Red wool hat.
>>>> It isn't Alabaster or Alice Blue
>>>> or Almond or Amber
>>>> or Amethyst or Antique Brass
>>>> or Apple Green or Apricot
>>>> or Aqua or Aquamarine
>>>> or Asparagus or Atomic Tangerine
>>>> or Auburn or Azure
>>>> or Baby Blue or Baby Pink
>>>> or Banana Mania or Beaver
>>>> or Beige or Bittersweet
>>>> or Black or Blizzard Blue
>>>> or Blue or Blue Bell
>>>> or Blue Gray or Blue Green
>>>> or Blue Violet or Blush
>>>> or Brick Red or Bronze
>>>> or Brown or Burgundy
>>>> or Burnt Orange or Burnt Sienna
>>>> or Cadet Blue or Canary
>>>> or Caribbean Green or Carnation Pink
>>>> or Cerise or Cerulean
>>>> or Champagne or Charcoal
>>>> or Chartreuse or Chestnut
>>>> or Chocolate or Cinnamon
>>>> or Claret or Cobalt
>>>> or Copper or Coral
>>>> or Corn or Cornflower
>>>> or Cotton Candy or Cream
>>>> or Cyan or Dandelion
>>>> or Denim or Desert Sand
>>>> or Ebony or Ecru
>>>> or Eggplant or Eggshell
>>>> or Electric Lime or Emerald
>>>> or Fawn or Fern
>>>> or Fire Engine Red or Forest Green
>>>> or Fuchsia or Fuzzy Wuzzy
>>>> or Gold or Goldenrod
>>>> or Granny Smith Apple or Gray
>>>> or Green or Green Blue
>>>> or Green Yellow or Honey Dew
>>>> or Hot Magenta or Hunter Green
>>>> or Inchworm or Indigo
>>>> or Ivory or Jade
>>>> or Jazzberry Jam or Jungle Green
>>>> or Kelly Green or Khaki
>>>> or Laser Lemon or Lavender
>>>> or Lawn Green or Lemon Yellow
>>>> or Lilac or Macaroni and Cheese
>>>> or Magenta or Magnola
>>>> or Magic Mint or Mahogany
>>>> or Maize or Manatee
>>>> or Mango Tango or Maroon
>>>> or Mauvelous or Melon
>>>> or Midnight Blue or Moss Green
>>>> or Mountain Meadow or Mulberry
>>>> or Mustard or Navy Blue
>>>> or Neon Carrot or Ochre
>>>> or Olive Drab or Olive Green
>>>> or Orange or Orange Red
>>>> or Orange Yellow or Orchid
>>>> or Outer Space or Outrageous Orange
>>>> or Pacific Blue or Peach
>>>> or Pear or Pearl
>>>> or Periwinkle or Persimmon
>>>> or Piggy Pink or Pine Green
>>>> or Pink Flamingo or Pink Sherbert
>>>> or Platinum or Plum
>>>> or Power Blue or Primrose
>>>> or Puce or Pumpkin
>>>> or Purple Heart or Purple Mountain's Majesty
>>>> or Purple Pizzazz or Radical Red
>>>> or Raspberry or Raw Sienna
>>>> or Raw Umber or Razzle Dazzle Rose
>>>> or Razzmatazz or Red Orange
>>>> or Red Violet or Robin's Egg Blue
>>>> or Rose or Royal Blue
>>>> or Royal Purple or Ruby
>>>> or Russet or Rust
>>>> or Saffron or Salmon
>>>> or Sapphire or Scarlet
>>>> or Screamin' Green or Sea Green
>>>> or Sepia or Shadow
>>>> or Shamrock or Shocking Pink
>>>> or Silver or Sky Blue
>>>> or Slate or Sorrel
>>>> or Spring Green or Steel Blue
>>>> or Sunglow or Sunset Orange
>>>> or Tan or Taupe
>>>> or Teal Blue or Terracotta
>>>> or Thistle or Tickle Me Pink
>>>> or Timberwolf or Titian
>>>> or Topaz or Tropical Rain Forest
>>>> or Tumbleweed or Turquoise Blue
>>>> or Ultramarine or Umber
>>>> or Unmellow Yellow or Vermilion
>>>> or Violet (Purple) or Violet Blue
>>>> or Violet Red or Vivid Tangerine
>>>> or Vivid Violet or White
>>>> or Wild Blue Yonder or Wild Strawberry
>>>> or Wild Watermelon or Wisteria
>>>> or Yellow or Yellow Green
>>>> or Yellow Orange or Zinnober
>>>> but just a hat that's Red.
>>>> It warms her ears, just Betty's ears.
>>>> poem by ray heinrich, George Dance, & Will Dockery
>>>
>>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/K35lTXRHQZI/m/gnu0G2_wAwAJ?hl=en
>> On 2022-11-02 9:43 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-4,
>> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>> On 2022-11-01 3:55 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>>
>>>> "Peter's accusation" was that I took a (claimed) poem of his and
>>>> published it under my own name, with only the character's name, "Batty,"
>>>> changed. As you also should remember, I spent considerable time with you
>>>> on a long thread, showing exactly all the steps in the evolution of
>>>> "Penny, or Penny's Hat," and proving that the alleged plagiarism never
>>>> happened.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately, for you, you only ended up supporting Peter's accusation.
>> You're simply repeating the same bogus charge. You agree with yourself;
>> whoo-de-doo!
>
> I've also reposted the *evidence* to back up that charge.
>
> Why have you chosen to ignore it?
>
>>> You place far too much stock in your "debunking" skills.
>> Perhaps. I think you overestimate your own "skills" as well.
>
> Perhaps that's why you've earned your nickname as well.
>
>>> I have read both "Betty's" and "Batty's" poems, and there is no
>> *significant* difference between them.
>> That's not true. "Batty" was five lines long; "Betty" was over 3,000.
>> That alone is a fairly "significant" difference.
>
> No, George, it isn't.
>
> "Betty's" 3,000-plus lines added *nothing* to the poem. Nor did they change the *meaning* of the poem in any way, shape or form.
>
> You simply to one line from PJR's poem, substituted a new color for the one PJR used, and repeated it ad infinitum.
>
>>> You changed one letter in the title character's name
>> That's not true, either. I used the name Will had come up with. (Of
>> course I later changed it to "Penny", since Will wasn't credited, and
>> since he'd decided to write a "Betty's Hat" poem of his own.)
>
> Time to throw the Donkey under a bus!
>
> And, I must say that I'm glad I've lived to see it. There is poetic justice in this life!
>
>> , and one or two words (if that) in each of PJR's lines.
>> That's not true either. I didn't use any of PJ's lines. I bagan with the
>> lines from one of Ray Heinrich's poems, all of which were significant
>> rewrites of PJ's "poem".
>
> PJR: Batty's red woollen hat is a good hat
>
> GJD: Betty's hat is a good hat./It's a Red wool hat.
>
> Your audacity in the face of overwhelming evidence is astounding.
>
>
>>> The only distinguishing factor was that PJR's poem only listed a
>> couple of colors, whereas your poem expanded the list of colors into the
>> dozens (hundreds?, thousands?).
>> As I said, that sounds pretty significant to me. My poem was a "list of
>> colors", while PJ's "poem" was a diary entry about a stuffed toy of his.
>
> In which case you should have dropped the framing story about PJR's stuffed toy and its hat.
>
>>> But the additional colors did not *significantly* alter the content
>> of the poem. The hat was still red, not yellow, and still Batty's/Betty's.
>> It's a pity that the hat had to stay "red" for the closing rhyme. But of
>> course that rhyme was in my poem, not in PJ's "poem". That's another
>> differenc; there was no rhyme in PJ's poem.
>
> It may be a "differenc," but it's not a significant difference.
>
> (Sorry about the spelling lame, but it makes a valid point.)
>
>
>>> Here's the proof:
>>>
>>> From rec.arts.poems ("Batty / PJR)
>>>
>>> On Friday, November 20, 2009 at 7:12:12 PM UTC-5, Peter J Ross wrote:
>>>> Batty's red woollen hat is a good hat.
>>>> It's a hat that isn't yellow, it's just a hat
>>>> that's red. It warms his ears, Batty's ears,
>>>> not mine, not yours.
>>>> --
>>>> PJR :-)
>>>> <http://pjr.lasnobberia.net/verse/>
>>>
>>> Then George Dance grabbed the poem for his very own:
>> snip for focus
>>>>
>>>> Betty's hat is a good hat.
>>>> It's a Red wool hat.
>>>> It isn't Alabaster or Alice Blue
>> [...]
>>>> or Yellow Orange or Zinnober
>>>> but just a hat that's Red.
>>>> It warms her ears, just Betty's ears.
>>>> poem by ray heinrich, George Dance, & Will Dockery
>
> I'm sorry, George... but where is the alleged rhyme in the above?
>
> Not that it matters. Even if there were a rhyme, anyone can see that your poem is nearly a word-for-word copy of PJR's.
>
>>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/K35lTXRHQZI/m/gnu0G2_wAwAJ?hl=en
>> I can understand why you'd use an old draft, rather than the "Betty"
>> poem I actually published. Unfortunately, that bit of deception
>> doesn't help your claim, but just shows further that you're saying
>> things that aren't true.
>
> I used the copy that my search brought up.
>
> If you believe a later version supports your case, feel free to print it.
>
>> First, it is not true that I "grabbed" that draft "as [my] very own". As
>> everyone can read, ray heinrich is credited as the primary author (which
>> he should have been, since it was in his poem).
>
> Um... have you forgotten your message to Will (quoted above)?
>
> "So I'm starting to doubt that ray (heinrich) will be willing to get involved in this project. But I'll keep plugging along, nevertheless."
>
>> Second, while you were smart enough to snip out ray's poem, it's easy
>> enough to restore that here and show your other untrue claim:
>>
>>
>>>> Batty's hat is a good hat.
>>>> It's a red wool hat.
>>>> It isn't green or blue or yellow.
>>>> It's just a hat that's red.
>>>> It warms his ears, just Batty's ears.
>
> So... you're claiming that Ray Heinrich changed a couple of words in PJR's poem, and added three colors to make a list; and that you took ray's spoof and used it as an excuse to plagiarize PJR's poem?
>
> Got it.
>
>> The lines that you claimed I changed from PJ's "poem" are (except for
>> the character's name) identical to the lines in Ray's poem. The only
>> change from Ray's was the name, "Betty", which actually came from Will.
>> (Which is why he's credited as well). So that claim of yours wasn't
>> true, either.
>
> It doesn't matter who changed the words in PJR's lines.

On 2022-11-02 11:38 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:10:16 AM UTC-4,
george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-11-02 10:25 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
>>> George J. Dance wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery
wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4,
Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will
Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM
UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs,
"Professor"; it's about what the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the
idea the speaker might be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does
your lack of punctuation help your poem?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what
they're there for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six
ampersands..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced
by &.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced
"and." I can understand you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could
have Googled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla,
another wannabe online poetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with
the writer of the poem.."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to
forget it so often.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at
creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it
"plagiarized" yet..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid
opinion), but *should* she have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without
justification) for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of
literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his
website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from
PJR. And you know that, as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
>>>>>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having
plagiarized it from him.
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
>>>>>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
>>>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and
finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>>>>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that
George Dance would be happy about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your
Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't
believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, that is precisely what he did
>>>
>>>
>>>> No, that was a false accusation of PJ Ross's (and, now, yours). The
>>>> alleged plagiaized poem that PJ Ross claimed I'd posted never existed.
>>>> When that was not just pointed out but proven, he simply made up a
story
>>>> that I'd "deleted" it (not just from Google groups, but from all of
>>>> usenet).
>>>
>>>
>>>>> , and raking it over the coals, yet another time, does nothing to
improve his reputation.
>>>
>>>
>>>> Actually, I think allowing bogus allegations like the above one go
>>>> unanswered would be far worse for my reputation.
>>>
>>> Yes, correct the lies and misrepresentations and set the record
straight, in other words.
>>>
>> Indeed. I don't get to do that with the Chimp's stories about you (since
>> you don't want me writing the details of your life), or of Michael's
>> false story about Ilya (since he doesn't want me writing about that) --
>
> I didn't make up the story about Ilya.

On 2022-11-02 12:05 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:25 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>> On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
>>>>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
>>>>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
>>>>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
>>>>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
>>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>>>
>>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>>>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
>>>>
>>>> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
>>>>
>>>> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
>>>>
>>>> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
>>>>
>>>> However, that is precisely what he did

On 2022-11-02 11:56 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:25:12 AM UTC-4,
george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>> On 2022-11-02 10:12 a.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:57:28 AM UTC-4,
george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>>>> On 2022-11-01 5:31 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
>>>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and
finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>>>>> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
>>>>>
>>>>> Funny who the whippin' fools cannot provide proof. But who needs
proof when they know they, like Trump, can get away with lying and
misrepresenting!
>>>> You're doing the same thing you're complaining about Zod doing,
>>>> Ashtroll: accusing him of "lying" but not even trying to provide
proof.
>>>>
>>>> Why do you constantly complain about others doing the same things
you do
>>>> yourself?
>>>>
>>>> That's a rhetorical question, of course; because that's what you
do, you
>>>> suspect everyone else of doing the same things.
>>>
>>> And why do you also do what you say is so wrong, George Dance?
>>> Like grossly misrepresenting (paraphrasing you, such a superior
person so lamely excuse) my words.
>> You havn't 'paraphrased' anything, stupid troll. You merely accused me
>> of the same thing you accused Zod of, but didn't supply any "words" of
>> mine to back up your claim.
>
> George, George, George... [shakes head]. If you're going to call
someone "stupid," it behooves you to spellcheck your statement prior to
posting it.

Why not? My typo was simply a typo. His self-referential claim wasn't --
it was sheer stupidity on his part to accuse Zod of doing something, and
then to do exactly the same thing himself.

> Failure to do so makes one look like a... dunce.
>
In fact, I can call you "stupid" for ignoring what I said to pounce on a
typo, so I will -- you're being stupid. Please try not to be so stupid
in the future.

>>> You sold your dignity to help your cash cow dominate this group as
his personal "work" promotion place.
>> Whatever; you sold yours for a chance to "collaborate" with someone you
>> thought was a "real poet", Chimp Obsesso.
>
> You had obviously sold your dignity prior to my arrival here, George
> (as evidenced by the comments of PJR, Aratzio, Cujo, and others
regarding you).
>
PJR and what we called his "Crabbe and Goyle" made similarly vile
comments about you, remember. Are you saying you lost your own dignity
because of them?

> Ash, otoh, had just as obviously remained neutral in the celebrated
Donkey Wars , until the Donkey and his Stink began attacking him.

That's doubtful. First, it doesn't match my own experience with the
Ashtroll -- he attacked me first -- and I've seen him attacking others,
such as Ilya, who've never attacked him at all.

Second, the Ashtroll has admitted that he was already working for the
Chimp, who spends as much as 85% of his time attacking Will. You may
want to call that a coincidence, but I don't think anyone but Team
Monkey's or their fans is gonna buy it.

Slapping down one's enemies is hardly "selling out."
>
>>> You're hardly superior,
>>
>>
>> I'm certainly superior to you in some things. Morally and ethically, for
>> one: you constantly lie and bullshit for the win, while I stick to
>> telling the truth.
>
> No, George, you don't.
>
> You may believe you're telling the truth, but you are not.
>
> A comparison of "Penny's Hat" with "Batty's" makes it abundantly
clear that you stole PJR's poem almost word-for-word, yet you
continually deny it.

So you've said; but you haven't even bothered to compare those two
works. Instead, you tried comparing PJ's poem to an old draft (in which
the lines you called "plagiarized" weren't even written by me), and
trying to pretend that was "Penny's Hat." You tried a fraud, and got
caught doing it.

>
> You also are known for your dishonest "strawman" arguments, wherein
you falsely attribute a reworded statement to your selected "opponent,"
and proceed to argue against it.
>
You've called some of my arguments "strawmen." -- I've called some of
yours "strawmen." So I could say the same thing about you.

>>> you're as lowly as > the worst Usenet troll, and I now believe some
of the accusations against you because you personally proved them with
your behavior here.
>> Given that you're a proven liar and bullshitter, there's no reason to
>> think you actually believe any of them. It's more likely you're lying
>> and bullshitting about that for a win, too.
>
> You say that Ash is a *proven* liar and bullshitter, yet decline to
provide any evidence to back up your claim.
>
I just flagged one such claim on this thread: the Ashtroll's claim that
Pj had "declared war" with me over "Penny's Hat." When in fact PJ and
his team (Aratzio, Cujo, et al) had been fighting their flame war with
me long before that. Either the Ashtroll knew that (which means he was
lying) or he didn't (which means he was bullshitting).

So you can't even say that I haven't produced any evidence. And when you
say I "declined" to provide any, you've crossed over into simple lying.

> AFAIC, your failure to support your claims renders them untrue, and
makes you both a liar and a bullshitter for having made them.
>
AFAIC, you're just supporting a fellow member of your Team Monkey (the
same way you were doing for Nasty Gene earlier) in their flame war.

> When it comes to accusing others on Usenet, you know the rules: PP or
STFU.

As I just pointed out, I've already given you an example. You can
pretend to not read it, if you want, but I'll keep reminding you it's in
the thread.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:09:19 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-02 11:31 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:04:15 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-11-02 9:43 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>> On 2022-11-01 3:55 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:29:41 PM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>>>> xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Trolling snipped xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> >>>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >>>>>> Peter has been known to lie sometimes though....
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Has he?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> PP or STFU.
> >>>> One good example is "Peter's accusation" that you just mentioned. I'm
> >>>> just going by memory, but since remember it so well, I don't think I
> >>>> have to dig up an old post for you.
> >>>>
> >>>> "Peter's accusation" was that I took a (claimed) poem of his and
> >>>> published it under my own name, with only the character's name, "Batty,"
> >>>> changed. As you also should remember, I spent considerable time with you
> >>>> on a long thread, showing exactly all the steps in the evolution of
> >>>> "Penny, or Penny's Hat," and proving that the alleged plagiarism never
> >>>> happened.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, for you, you only ended up supporting Peter's accusation.
> >>>
> >>> You place far too much stock in your "debunking" skills.
> >>>
> >>> I have read both "Betty's" and "Batty's" poems, and there is no *significant* difference between them.
> >>>
> >>> You changed one letter in the title character's name, and one or two words (if that) in each of PJR's lines.
> >>>
> >>> The only distinguishing factor was that PJR's poem only listed a couple of colors, whereas your poem expanded the list of colors into the dozens (hundreds?, thousands?).
> >>>
> >>> But the additional colors did not *significantly* alter the content of the poem. The hat was still red, not yellow, and still Batty's/Betty's.
> >>>
> >>> Here's the proof:
> >>>
> >>> From rec.arts.poems ("Batty / PJR)
> >>>
> >>> On Friday, November 20, 2009 at 7:12:12 PM UTC-5, Peter J Ross wrote:
> >>>> Batty's red woollen hat is a good hat.
> >>>> It's a hat that isn't yellow, it's just a hat
> >>>> that's red. It warms his ears, Batty's ears,
> >>>> not mine, not yours.
> >>>> --
> >>>> PJR :-)
> >>>> <http://pjr.lasnobberia.net/verse/>
> >>>
> >>> Then George Dance grabbed the poem for his very own:
> >>>
> >>> On Thursday, November 26, 2009 at 9:53:44 PM UTC-5, George J. Dance wrote:
> >>>> On Nov 24, 9:57 pm, Will Dockery <will.dock...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>> On Nov 24, 9:29 pm, George Dance <georgedanc...@yahoo.ca> wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> Hell, if we get rid of "Batty", we can cut PJ out of the credits, too,
> >>>>>> and put you in. (Of course we have to change 'his' to 'her' in the
> >>>>>> last line. Let's see what ray thinks.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> That sounds like an interesting & intelligent idea to me...
> >>>>>
> >>>> BTW, I checked out Colin's reference, in his 'worst poet' message you
> >>>> quoted upthread, "that one of the best online poets around has joined
> >>>> this discussion. We are in the presence of greatness, people!" That
> >>>> has to be a reference to ray heinrich (who posted onto the thread, but
> >>>> didn't pick a worst poet).
> >>>> So I'm starting to doubt that ray will be willing to get involved in
> >>>> this project. But I'll keep plugging along, nevertheless.
> >>>> For this latest edit, I dropped the Dance Mix subtitle, and I added
> >>>> more colours: Rice's, then whatever I could remember on my own, then
> >>>> the HTML colour names. If you could think of any colours we've missed,
> >>>> that would be great, too.
> >>>>
> >>>> Betty
> >>>> Betty's hat is a good hat.
> >>>> It's a Red wool hat.
> >>>> It isn't Alabaster or Alice Blue
> >>>> or Almond or Amber
> >>>> or Amethyst or Antique Brass
> >>>> or Apple Green or Apricot
> >>>> or Aqua or Aquamarine
> >>>> or Asparagus or Atomic Tangerine
> >>>> or Auburn or Azure
> >>>> or Baby Blue or Baby Pink
> >>>> or Banana Mania or Beaver
> >>>> or Beige or Bittersweet
> >>>> or Black or Blizzard Blue
> >>>> or Blue or Blue Bell
> >>>> or Blue Gray or Blue Green
> >>>> or Blue Violet or Blush
> >>>> or Brick Red or Bronze
> >>>> or Brown or Burgundy
> >>>> or Burnt Orange or Burnt Sienna
> >>>> or Cadet Blue or Canary
> >>>> or Caribbean Green or Carnation Pink
> >>>> or Cerise or Cerulean
> >>>> or Champagne or Charcoal
> >>>> or Chartreuse or Chestnut
> >>>> or Chocolate or Cinnamon
> >>>> or Claret or Cobalt
> >>>> or Copper or Coral
> >>>> or Corn or Cornflower
> >>>> or Cotton Candy or Cream
> >>>> or Cyan or Dandelion
> >>>> or Denim or Desert Sand
> >>>> or Ebony or Ecru
> >>>> or Eggplant or Eggshell
> >>>> or Electric Lime or Emerald
> >>>> or Fawn or Fern
> >>>> or Fire Engine Red or Forest Green
> >>>> or Fuchsia or Fuzzy Wuzzy
> >>>> or Gold or Goldenrod
> >>>> or Granny Smith Apple or Gray
> >>>> or Green or Green Blue
> >>>> or Green Yellow or Honey Dew
> >>>> or Hot Magenta or Hunter Green
> >>>> or Inchworm or Indigo
> >>>> or Ivory or Jade
> >>>> or Jazzberry Jam or Jungle Green
> >>>> or Kelly Green or Khaki
> >>>> or Laser Lemon or Lavender
> >>>> or Lawn Green or Lemon Yellow
> >>>> or Lilac or Macaroni and Cheese
> >>>> or Magenta or Magnola
> >>>> or Magic Mint or Mahogany
> >>>> or Maize or Manatee
> >>>> or Mango Tango or Maroon
> >>>> or Mauvelous or Melon
> >>>> or Midnight Blue or Moss Green
> >>>> or Mountain Meadow or Mulberry
> >>>> or Mustard or Navy Blue
> >>>> or Neon Carrot or Ochre
> >>>> or Olive Drab or Olive Green
> >>>> or Orange or Orange Red
> >>>> or Orange Yellow or Orchid
> >>>> or Outer Space or Outrageous Orange
> >>>> or Pacific Blue or Peach
> >>>> or Pear or Pearl
> >>>> or Periwinkle or Persimmon
> >>>> or Piggy Pink or Pine Green
> >>>> or Pink Flamingo or Pink Sherbert
> >>>> or Platinum or Plum
> >>>> or Power Blue or Primrose
> >>>> or Puce or Pumpkin
> >>>> or Purple Heart or Purple Mountain's Majesty
> >>>> or Purple Pizzazz or Radical Red
> >>>> or Raspberry or Raw Sienna
> >>>> or Raw Umber or Razzle Dazzle Rose
> >>>> or Razzmatazz or Red Orange
> >>>> or Red Violet or Robin's Egg Blue
> >>>> or Rose or Royal Blue
> >>>> or Royal Purple or Ruby
> >>>> or Russet or Rust
> >>>> or Saffron or Salmon
> >>>> or Sapphire or Scarlet
> >>>> or Screamin' Green or Sea Green
> >>>> or Sepia or Shadow
> >>>> or Shamrock or Shocking Pink
> >>>> or Silver or Sky Blue
> >>>> or Slate or Sorrel
> >>>> or Spring Green or Steel Blue
> >>>> or Sunglow or Sunset Orange
> >>>> or Tan or Taupe
> >>>> or Teal Blue or Terracotta
> >>>> or Thistle or Tickle Me Pink
> >>>> or Timberwolf or Titian
> >>>> or Topaz or Tropical Rain Forest
> >>>> or Tumbleweed or Turquoise Blue
> >>>> or Ultramarine or Umber
> >>>> or Unmellow Yellow or Vermilion
> >>>> or Violet (Purple) or Violet Blue
> >>>> or Violet Red or Vivid Tangerine
> >>>> or Vivid Violet or White
> >>>> or Wild Blue Yonder or Wild Strawberry
> >>>> or Wild Watermelon or Wisteria
> >>>> or Yellow or Yellow Green
> >>>> or Yellow Orange or Zinnober
> >>>> but just a hat that's Red.
> >>>> It warms her ears, just Betty's ears.
> >>>> poem by ray heinrich, George Dance, & Will Dockery
> >>>
> >>> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/K35lTXRHQZI/m/gnu0G2_wAwAJ?hl=en
> >> On 2022-11-02 9:43 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:21:46 AM UTC-4,
> >> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>> On 2022-11-01 3:55 p.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:52:24 PM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>>
> >>>> "Peter's accusation" was that I took a (claimed) poem of his and
> >>>> published it under my own name, with only the character's name, "Batty,"
> >>>> changed. As you also should remember, I spent considerable time with you
> >>>> on a long thread, showing exactly all the steps in the evolution of
> >>>> "Penny, or Penny's Hat," and proving that the alleged plagiarism never
> >>>> happened.
> >>>
> >>> Unfortunately, for you, you only ended up supporting Peter's accusation.
> >> You're simply repeating the same bogus charge. You agree with yourself;
> >> whoo-de-doo!
> >
> > I've also reposted the *evidence* to back up that charge.
> >
> > Why have you chosen to ignore it?
> >
> >>> You place far too much stock in your "debunking" skills.
> >> Perhaps. I think you overestimate your own "skills" as well.
> >
> > Perhaps that's why you've earned your nickname as well.
> >
> >>> I have read both "Betty's" and "Batty's" poems, and there is no
> >> *significant* difference between them.
> >> That's not true. "Batty" was five lines long; "Betty" was over 3,000.
> >> That alone is a fairly "significant" difference.
> >
> > No, George, it isn't.
> >
> > "Betty's" 3,000-plus lines added *nothing* to the poem. Nor did they change the *meaning* of the poem in any way, shape or form.
> >
> > You simply to one line from PJR's poem, substituted a new color for the one PJR used, and repeated it ad infinitum.
> >
> >>> You changed one letter in the title character's name
> >> That's not true, either. I used the name Will had come up with. (Of
> >> course I later changed it to "Penny", since Will wasn't credited, and
> >> since he'd decided to write a "Betty's Hat" poem of his own.)
> >
> > Time to throw the Donkey under a bus!
> >
> > And, I must say that I'm glad I've lived to see it. There is poetic justice in this life!
> >
> >> , and one or two words (if that) in each of PJR's lines.
> >> That's not true either. I didn't use any of PJ's lines. I bagan with the
> >> lines from one of Ray Heinrich's poems, all of which were significant
> >> rewrites of PJ's "poem".
> >
> > PJR: Batty's red woollen hat is a good hat
> >
> > GJD: Betty's hat is a good hat./It's a Red wool hat.
> >
> > Your audacity in the face of overwhelming evidence is astounding.
> >
> >
> >>> The only distinguishing factor was that PJR's poem only listed a
> >> couple of colors, whereas your poem expanded the list of colors into the
> >> dozens (hundreds?, thousands?).
> >> As I said, that sounds pretty significant to me. My poem was a "list of
> >> colors", while PJ's "poem" was a diary entry about a stuffed toy of his.
> >
> > In which case you should have dropped the framing story about PJR's stuffed toy and its hat.
> >
> >>> But the additional colors did not *significantly* alter the content
> >> of the poem. The hat was still red, not yellow, and still Batty's/Betty's.
> >> It's a pity that the hat had to stay "red" for the closing rhyme. But of
> >> course that rhyme was in my poem, not in PJ's "poem". That's another
> >> differenc; there was no rhyme in PJ's poem.
> >
> > It may be a "differenc," but it's not a significant difference.
> >
> > (Sorry about the spelling lame, but it makes a valid point.)
> >
> >
> >>> Here's the proof:
> >>>
> >>> From rec.arts.poems ("Batty / PJR)
> >>>
> >>> On Friday, November 20, 2009 at 7:12:12 PM UTC-5, Peter J Ross wrote:
> >>>> Batty's red woollen hat is a good hat.
> >>>> It's a hat that isn't yellow, it's just a hat
> >>>> that's red. It warms his ears, Batty's ears,
> >>>> not mine, not yours.
> >>>> --
> >>>> PJR :-)
> >>>> <http://pjr.lasnobberia.net/verse/>
> >>>
> >>> Then George Dance grabbed the poem for his very own:
> >> snip for focus
> >>>>
> >>>> Betty's hat is a good hat.
> >>>> It's a Red wool hat.
> >>>> It isn't Alabaster or Alice Blue
> >> [...]
> >>>> or Yellow Orange or Zinnober
> >>>> but just a hat that's Red.
> >>>> It warms her ears, just Betty's ears.
> >>>> poem by ray heinrich, George Dance, & Will Dockery
> >
> > I'm sorry, George... but where is the alleged rhyme in the above?
> >
> > Not that it matters. Even if there were a rhyme, anyone can see that your poem is nearly a word-for-word copy of PJR's.
> >
> >>>
> >> https://groups.google.com/g/alt.arts.poetry.comments/c/K35lTXRHQZI/m/gnu0G2_wAwAJ?hl=en
> >> I can understand why you'd use an old draft, rather than the "Betty"
> >> poem I actually published. Unfortunately, that bit of deception
> >> doesn't help your claim, but just shows further that you're saying
> >> things that aren't true.
> >
> > I used the copy that my search brought up.
> >
> > If you believe a later version supports your case, feel free to print it.
> >
> >> First, it is not true that I "grabbed" that draft "as [my] very own". As
> >> everyone can read, ray heinrich is credited as the primary author (which
> >> he should have been, since it was in his poem).
> >
> > Um... have you forgotten your message to Will (quoted above)?
> >
> > "So I'm starting to doubt that ray (heinrich) will be willing to get involved in this project. But I'll keep plugging along, nevertheless."
> >
> >> Second, while you were smart enough to snip out ray's poem, it's easy
> >> enough to restore that here and show your other untrue claim:
> >>
> >>
> >>>> Batty's hat is a good hat.
> >>>> It's a red wool hat.
> >>>> It isn't green or blue or yellow.
> >>>> It's just a hat that's red.
> >>>> It warms his ears, just Batty's ears.
> >
> > So... you're claiming that Ray Heinrich changed a couple of words in PJR's poem, and added three colors to make a list; and that you took ray's spoof and used it as an excuse to plagiarize PJR's poem?
> >
> > Got it.
> >
> >> The lines that you claimed I changed from PJ's "poem" are (except for
> >> the character's name) identical to the lines in Ray's poem. The only
> >> change from Ray's was the name, "Betty", which actually came from Will..
> >> (Which is why he's credited as well). So that claim of yours wasn't
> >> true, either.
> >
> > It doesn't matter who changed the words in PJR's lines.
> It does matter, in assessing your claim, since you specifically claimed
> that I had changed PJ's lines, when you knew that was not true.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:39:54 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-02 11:38 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 11:10:16 AM UTC-4,
> george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >> On 2022-11-02 10:25 a.m., Will Dockery wrote:
> >>> George J. Dance wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery
> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4,
> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will
> Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM
> UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs,
> "Professor"; it's about what the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the
> idea the speaker might be a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does
> your lack of punctuation help your poem?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what
> they're there for.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six
> ampersands..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced
> by &.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced
> "and." I can understand you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could
> have Googled.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla,
> another wannabe online poetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with
> the writer of the poem.."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to
> forget it so often.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at
> creativity.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it
> "plagiarized" yet..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid
> opinion), but *should* she have.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without
> justification) for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that......
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of
> literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his
> website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from
> PJR. And you know that, as well.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
> >>>>>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having
> plagiarized it from him.
> >>>>>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
> >>>>>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
> >>>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and
> finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >>>>>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that
> George Dance would be happy about it.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your
> Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't
> believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> However, that is precisely what he did
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> No, that was a false accusation of PJ Ross's (and, now, yours). The
> >>>> alleged plagiaized poem that PJ Ross claimed I'd posted never existed.
> >>>> When that was not just pointed out but proven, he simply made up a
> story
> >>>> that I'd "deleted" it (not just from Google groups, but from all of
> >>>> usenet).
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>> , and raking it over the coals, yet another time, does nothing to
> improve his reputation.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>> Actually, I think allowing bogus allegations like the above one go
> >>>> unanswered would be far worse for my reputation.
> >>>
> >>> Yes, correct the lies and misrepresentations and set the record
> straight, in other words.
> >>>
> >> Indeed. I don't get to do that with the Chimp's stories about you (since
> >> you don't want me writing the details of your life), or of Michael's
> >> false story about Ilya (since he doesn't want me writing about that) --
> >
> > I didn't make up the story about Ilya.
> You took a reported story and changed the details. And, that's all I'll
> say about that, since (due to you) Ilya doesn't want me giving details.

On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:50:30 PM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> On 2022-11-02 12:05 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
> > On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:25 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>> On 2022-11-02 9:03 a.m., Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 12:04:09 AM UTC-4, Zod wrote:
> >>>>> Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> On Tuesday, November 1, 2022 at 3:25:28 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 2:11:38 PM UTC-4, Michael Pendragon wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, October 31, 2022 at 12:59:44 PM UTC-4, Will Dockery wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, October 22, 2022 at 5:51:34 AM UTC, george....@yahoo.ca wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and.." I can understand you
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
> >>>>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
> >>>>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
> >>>>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
> >>>>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
> >>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
> >>>>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
> >>>>
> >>>> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
> >>>>
> >>>> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
> >>>>
> >>>> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
> >>>>
> >>>> However, that is precisely what he did
>
> >>> No, that was a false accusation of PJ Ross's (and, now, yours). The
> >>> alleged plagiaized poem that PJ Ross claimed I'd posted never existed..
> >>> When that was not just pointed out but proven, he simply made up a story
> >>> that I'd "deleted" it (not just from Google groups, but from all of
> >>> usenet).
> >>>> , and raking it over the coals, yet another time, does nothing to improve his reputation.
> >>> Actually, I think allowing bogus allegations like the above one go
> >>> unanswered would be far worse for my reputation.
> >> You should have heeded my advice to Stink,.
> >>
> >> The accusations are both inescapably correct -- and damning. Especially your comment to Will: "Hell, if we get rid of 'Batty', we can cut PJ out of the credits, too, and put you in. (Of course we have to change 'his' to 'her' in the last line. Let's see what ray thinks."
> >
> > Vile! No wonder that PJR declared war.
> Excellent. Michael Monkey was just demanding evidence that you're a liar
> and bullshitter -- thank you for providing some.

George J. Dance wrote:

> On 2022-11-02 12:05 p.m., Ash Wurthing wrote:
>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:52:25 AM UTC-4, michaelmalef...@gmail.com wrote:
>>> On Wednesday, November 2, 2022 at 9:49:48 AM UTC-4, george...@yahoo.ca wrote:
>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> postpoetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> although there's nothing left to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we're gonna say it anyway
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a reader doesn't read
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll call him something we don't need
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a critic calls it shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we won't believe a word of it
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if a poet points that out
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we'll just ignore it & we'll shout
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about her frogs and trees and birds
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> so we won't have to read her words
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or better yet let's write of war
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and fill a page or two with gore
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> some reeking flesh a severed head
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & maggots feasting on the dead
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> & if perchance that doesn't shock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> let's add a line of fuck ass cock
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> motherfucker piss & shit
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> (who knows that just might pass for wit)
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> what else to do what else to say
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when everything is mere cliche?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> how else to make a reader feel
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or think that what we say is real?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of course the whole idea is dumb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> when we're as comfortably numb
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> but if we sweat through every motion
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> we may feel a real emotion –
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> at least it kills an hour or two
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and we have nothing else to do.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ~~
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George J. Dance, 2007
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> from Doggerel, and other doggerel, 2015
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance don't need no stinkin' commas.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It isn't about what George Dance needs, "Professor"; it's about what the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> speaker of the poem needs.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The speaker in your poem is not "a muse."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I never said he was. Where did you get the idea the speaker might be a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> muse?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If poetry is meant to be read aloud, how does your lack of punctuation help your poem?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Use the line and stanza breaks. That's what they're there for.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You did not address the visual demand for six ampersands..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> It's just part of the style. "and" is replaced by &.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Does the speaker say "ampersand" in each line?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, "Professor,", an ampersand is pronounced "and." I can understand you
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> not knowing that, but it's something you could have Googled.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Let me quote (from memory) from Karla, another wannabe online poetry
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> teacher we once had here:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> "Do not confuse the speaker of the poem with the writer of the poem.."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That saying has been used too much here.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not enough, considering how many tend to forget it so often.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The poem still represents your attempt at creativity.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Oh, good; you haven't started calling it "plagiarized" yet..
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Should she have?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That would be a typical NancyGene troll stunt, yes.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I didn't ask if she would have (in your paranoid opinion), but *should* she have.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance is known (with or without justification) for
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's just a smear from PJR, Pen, you know that.....
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pendragon damned well knows it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That only accounts for one of the accusations.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Both Jim and I were victims of another form of literary theft when George Dance refused to remove our poetry from his website and posted out of context quotes by us in his wiki.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> That's not plagiarism, though.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What part of "another form" are you failing to comprehend?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> George Dance did, otoh, plagiarize "Batty's Hat" from PJR. And you know that, as well.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> No, it was a parody, satire of PJR.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Fair use.
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Exactly, you nailed that onme, Doc...!
>>>>>>>>>>>> Obvious, probably even to PJR himself.
>>>>>>>>>>> Obviously not, since PJR accused George Dance of having plagiarized it from him.
>>>>>>>>>> I didn't say PJR would admit it, little monkey.
>>>>>>>>> Was George's "Penny's Hat" blog a satire as well, Donkey?
>>>>>>>> I don't remember, we should ask George Dance, little monkey.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you like. I do remember reading PJR's accusation, and finding it disturbingly convincing.
>>>>>> Your memory is not well known to be very trustworthy, Pen.
>>>>>
>>>>> I am known for having an exceptional memory, Stink.
>>>>>
>>>>> I could easily find and repost PJR's accusation, but I doubt that George Dance would be happy about it.
>>>>>
>>>>> I also doubt that George Dance appreciates how you and your Donkey insist on pressing the issue. As previously noted, I don't believe that George Dance intentionally set out to plagiarize PJR.
>>>>>
>>>>> However, that is precisely what he did