On 04/12/2021 13:32, Tweed wrote:
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>
>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>
>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>
>>>
>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>
>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>
>> Sam
>>
>
> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.
>

If you don't like advance fares, don't buy one. No-one is forcing you
to. Meanwhile very many people find them very useful.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 04/12/2021 15:07, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>> 2021,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is
>>>>>>>> last-minute
>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I
>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>>
>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the
>>>>> general
>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>
>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed
>>>>> by a
>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available
>>>> on my
>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>
>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile.  It would be even more useful
>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>>
>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>
>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>
>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
>> many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient for
>> his
>> own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
>> isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>
>
> I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient.  However I received
> well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
> inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
> specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there.  Searching
> through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>
> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the legally
> required link to remove myself for the same.

Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
address for the purpose?

>
> I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
> apart from travelling on their services.  I can tell from the email
> address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>

So you have had a business agreement with them.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On Fri, 03 Dec 2021 17:46:56 +0000
Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>Having said that, POP3 is now such an antiquated means of handling email
>that, in my opinion, anyone still choosing to use it instead of IMAP
>deserves all the pain that they are inflicting on themselves. And I'd be

Not that it counts for much these days, but unencrypted POP3 has the advantage
of being simple enough to use manually just using telnet if you have no specific
mail clients available.

On 04/12/2021 15:14, Tweed wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>>>
>>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>
>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
>>> many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient for his
>>> own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
>>> isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>
>>
>> I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>> well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>> inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>> specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching >> through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>
>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the legally
>> required link to remove myself for the same.
>>
>> I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
>> apart from travelling on their services. I can tell from the email
>> address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>>
>>
> Can’t you just get the unwanted emails auto junked by a suitable filter
> configured server side?
> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
> multiple accounts.
>
I could do but that doesn't solve the problem of organisations illegally
using that email address. Looking at the junk email over the past week
here I've received about ten which appear to be from or leaked from
ticketing organisations. I also note that in my ToC mailbox the number
of emails claims relating to compensation claims exceed those relating
to tickets!

My email provider does not offer junk email filtering. Thunderbird does
well enough for me.

In addition I was hit by the American Ticketmaster breach and I'm
getting quite a lot of junk as a result of that.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 14:14, Sam Wilson wrote:
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I have an opposite "Only in…" problem, in that I don't have a working
>>>>>> printer. I've survived without one for over two years now (asking a
>>>>>> neighbour or using a local print shop on the few occasions I needed to
>>>>>> print something). For much of the previous decade or so, my printer's ink
>>>>>> cartridges had dried out every time I needed to use it. PDF-on-phone or
>>>>>> ticket-in-app is *so* much more convenient for me than print-at-home!
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Just in case you ever feel the need to buy a printer can I recommend a
>>>>> Brother colour laser printer? Comes with fully filled toner cartridges and
>>>>> supports Airprint. Never dries out and just sits there minding its own
>>>>> business until I send it the occasional job. (The most use it gets now is
>>>>> printing prepaid address labels for posting parcels. You can even get the
>>>>> postie to pick up the parcel from home for a low fee or nothing at all -
>>>>> they keep changing their mind about pick up fees.)
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the recommendation; parcels to be collected from home is pretty
>>>> much the only thing which has been a particular frustration of not having a
>>>> printer.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>
>>>
>>> Just another tip for parcels, but only works if you live in crime free
>>> area. I’ve put a large plastic box with a hinged lid in our open porch,
>>> marked parcels. It’s attached to the wall with an eye bolt and cable tie.
>>> Parcels get dropped off into it, and collected from it. Postie said he
>>> wished everyone had one. Obviously there’s a risk of getting stuff nicked,
>>> but balanced against parcels that can’t be delivered going astray. Over a
>>> couple of years I’ve never had a problem.
>>
>> Here we have 6 flats behind a locked door with an entryphone. It used to be
>> that when there was a delivery for someone who wasn’t in the delivery
>> person get another householder to take in the parcel, and make a note of
>> which flat it was in. Then, around the time lockdown started, they would
>> just leave it on the relevant doormat. Now they’ve taken to just asking
>> for the door to be opened, dropping the parcel inside and making a run for
>> it. I don’t know if they’re required to produce any kind of proof of
>> delivery. Even in earlier times we’ve had at least one theft - the
>> miscreant(s) left the packaging behind and just made off with the contents.
>>
>
> Some operatives seem to take photographs of the parcel on the doorstep.
>
> My parcels go to an office with CCTV. Apparently they have video of a
> Hermes operative taking a photograph of an empty doorstep.

And one of the other folks in the stair has just arrived home to find a
parcel left outside the street door - the recipient was a home and the
delivery person apparently didn’t even bother to ring the bell.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 15:14, Tweed wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>>>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>>>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sam
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
>>>> many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient for his
>>>> own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
>>>> isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>>> well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>>> inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>>> specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching >>
>>> through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>>
>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the legally
>>> required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>
>>> I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
>>> apart from travelling on their services. I can tell from the email
>>> address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>>>
>>>
>> Can’t you just get the unwanted emails auto junked by a suitable filter
>> configured server side?
>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>> multiple accounts.
>>
> I could do but that doesn't solve the problem of organisations illegally
> using that email address. Looking at the junk email over the past week
> here I've received about ten which appear to be from or leaked from
> ticketing organisations. …

Are you sure you didn’t fail to tick the almost imperceptible box that said
“I’m a grumpy old git so don’t send me marketing emails”?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>
>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>
>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>>
>>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>>
>>> Sam
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
>> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
>> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
>> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
>> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
>> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.
>>
>
> If you don't like advance fares, don't buy one. No-one is forcing you
> to. Meanwhile very many people find them very useful.
>

My objection to them is they are used to justify the high price of flexible
fares. Off peak fares are high, with the justification that you can always
buy an Advance.

On 04/12/2021 16:42, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>>>
>>>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>>>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>>>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>>>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
>>> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
>>> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
>>> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
>>> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
>>> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.
>>>
>>
>> If you don't like advance fares, don't buy one. No-one is forcing you
>> to. Meanwhile very many people find them very useful.
>>
>
> My objection to them is they are used to justify the high price of flexible
> fares. Off peak fares are high, with the justification that you can always
> buy an Advance.
>

Fares generally are high because the government is trying to make the
railways self-funding. Please explain who is using Advance ticket prices
to justify other fares, apart from your own prejudices.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 04/12/2021 15:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 15:07, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is
>>>>>>>>> last-minute
>>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I
>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds,
>>>>>>>> open the
>>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the
>>>>>> general
>>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed
>>>>>> by a
>>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available
>>>>> on my
>>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile.  It would be even more useful
>>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I
>>>>> know.
>>>>>
>>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>
>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
>>> many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient
>>> for his
>>> own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
>>> isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>
>>
>> I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient.  However I
>> received well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they
>> become inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward
>> to a specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there.
>> Searching through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>
>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>
> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
> address for the purpose?
Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>
>>
>> I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
>> apart from travelling on their services.  I can tell from the email
>> address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>>
>
> So you have had a business agreement with them.

My agreement is with the ToC I purchased the tickets from not the ToCs
whose trains I travel on apart from the NCoC which are not relevant when
considering junk emails.

On 04/12/2021 16:37, Sam Wilson wrote:
> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 15:14, Tweed wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>>>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>>>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>>>>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>>>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>>>>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
>>>>> many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient for his
>>>>> own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
>>>>> isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>>>> well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>>>> inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>>>> specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching >>
>>>> through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>>>
>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the legally
>>>> required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>
>>>> I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
>>>> apart from travelling on their services. I can tell from the email
>>>> address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Can’t you just get the unwanted emails auto junked by a suitable filter
>>> configured server side?
>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>> multiple accounts.
>>>
>> I could do but that doesn't solve the problem of organisations illegally
>> using that email address. Looking at the junk email over the past week
>> here I've received about ten which appear to be from or leaked from
>> ticketing organisations. …
>
> Are you sure you didn’t fail to tick the almost imperceptible box that said
> “I’m a grumpy old git so don’t send me marketing emails”?
>

I did but the T&Cs on some ToCs purchasing web site give themselves
permission to pass on your travel details and email address to those you
are using regardless of the tick boxes.

On 04/12/2021 16:42, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>>>
>>>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>>>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>>>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>>>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>>>
>>>> Sam
>>>>
>>>
>>> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
>>> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
>>> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
>>> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
>>> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
>>> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.
>>>
>>
>> If you don't like advance fares, don't buy one. No-one is forcing you
>> to. Meanwhile very many people find them very useful.
>>
>
> My objection to them is they are used to justify the high price of flexible
> fares. Off peak fares are high, with the justification that you can always
> buy an Advance.
>

Not around here you can't apart from possibly TfW. Even before the
Covid crisis XC had very few advance fares available. The gWr IET
crisis timetable has reduced the London timetable by about 50% and I've
yet to be offered an advance fare on their services at all this year.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 16:42, Tweed wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/12/2021 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>>>>
>>>>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>>>>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>>>>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>>>>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sam
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
>>>> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
>>>> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
>>>> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
>>>> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
>>>> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.
>>>>
>>>
>>> If you don't like advance fares, don't buy one. No-one is forcing you
>>> to. Meanwhile very many people find them very useful.
>>>
>>
>> My objection to them is they are used to justify the high price of flexible
>> fares. Off peak fares are high, with the justification that you can always
>> buy an Advance.
>>
>
> Fares generally are high because the government is trying to make the
> railways self-funding. Please explain who is using Advance ticket prices
> to justify other fares, apart from your own prejudices.
>

Rail Delivery Group spokespersons passim. Whenever the price of tickets to
London is raised round here in the press the line that remarkably good
value Advance tickets can be purchased is trotted out. The issue that peak
time fares are egregiously high is never addressed. I’ve stood at the
station watching peak time trains to London leave half full. (Pre covid)

On 04/12/2021 17:14, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 15:35, Graeme Wall wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 15:07, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk wrote:
>>> On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3
>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is
>>>>>>>>>> last-minute
>>>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I
>>>>>>>>>> might
>>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds,
>>>>>>>>> open the
>>>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone
>>>>>>>> else’s.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the
>>>>>>> general
>>>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even
>>>>>>> without the
>>>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend
>>>>>>> quite a
>>>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface
>>>>>>> designed by a
>>>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available
>>>>>> on my
>>>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed
>>>>>> tickets so
>>>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile.  It would be even more
>>>>>> useful
>>>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I
>>>>>> know.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>>>
>>>>> Sam
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
>>>> many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient
>>>> for his
>>>> own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
>>>> isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient.  However I
>>> received well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they
>>> become inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either
>>> forward to a specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there.
>>> Searching through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.
>>>
>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not
>>> viable as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide
>>> the legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>
>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific
>> email address for the purpose?
> Not long.  But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.

Most email clients have useful filtering facilities built in even if
your service provider doesn't.

>>
>>>
>>> I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
>>> apart from travelling on their services.  I can tell from the email
>>> address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>>>
>>
>> So you have had a business agreement with them.
>
> My agreement is with the ToC I purchased the tickets from not the ToCs
> whose trains I travel on apart from the NCoC which are not relevant when
> considering junk emails.
>

You used a service they provide, there is some form of agreement. Also
all email advertising from reputable companies has an opt-out by law
even though they often do their best to disguise it.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 04/12/2021 17:36, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 16:42, Tweed wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04/12/2021 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>>>>>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>>>>>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>>>>>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
>>>>> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
>>>>> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
>>>>> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
>>>>> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
>>>>> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> If you don't like advance fares, don't buy one. No-one is forcing you
>>>> to. Meanwhile very many people find them very useful.
>>>>
>>>
>>> My objection to them is they are used to justify the high price of flexible
>>> fares. Off peak fares are high, with the justification that you can always
>>> buy an Advance.
>>>
>>
>> Fares generally are high because the government is trying to make the
>> railways self-funding. Please explain who is using Advance ticket prices
>> to justify other fares, apart from your own prejudices.
>>
>
> Rail Delivery Group spokespersons passim. Whenever the price of tickets to
> London is raised round here in the press the line that remarkably good
> value Advance tickets can be purchased is trotted out. The issue that peak
> time fares are egregiously high is never addressed. I’ve stood at the
> station watching peak time trains to London leave half full. (Pre covid)
>

Who defines egregiously high? Have you done a comparison of fares now
and, say 30, years ago?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 17:36, Tweed wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/12/2021 16:42, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 04/12/2021 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>>>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>>>>>>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>>>>>>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>>>>>>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
>>>>>> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
>>>>>> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
>>>>>> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
>>>>>> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
>>>>>> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> If you don't like advance fares, don't buy one. No-one is forcing you
>>>>> to. Meanwhile very many people find them very useful.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> My objection to them is they are used to justify the high price of flexible
>>>> fares. Off peak fares are high, with the justification that you can always
>>>> buy an Advance.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Fares generally are high because the government is trying to make the
>>> railways self-funding. Please explain who is using Advance ticket prices
>>> to justify other fares, apart from your own prejudices.
>>>
>>
>> Rail Delivery Group spokespersons passim. Whenever the price of tickets to
>> London is raised round here in the press the line that remarkably good
>> value Advance tickets can be purchased is trotted out. The issue that peak
>> time fares are egregiously high is never addressed. I’ve stood at the
>> station watching peak time trains to London leave half full. (Pre covid)
>>
>
> Who defines egregiously high? Have you done a comparison of fares now
> and, say 30, years ago?
>

Yes, but not our route. The NRM has pricing for London - Manchester. In
today’s prices it was around £65 in 1976 compared to a stated £180 today.

On 04/12/2021 17:50, Tweed wrote:
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>> On 04/12/2021 17:36, Tweed wrote:
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 04/12/2021 16:42, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On 04/12/2021 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>>>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>>>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>>>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>>>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>>>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>>>>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>>>>>>>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>>>>>>>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>>>>>>>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
>>>>>>> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
>>>>>>> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
>>>>>>> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
>>>>>>> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
>>>>>>> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you don't like advance fares, don't buy one. No-one is forcing you
>>>>>> to. Meanwhile very many people find them very useful.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> My objection to them is they are used to justify the high price of flexible
>>>>> fares. Off peak fares are high, with the justification that you can always
>>>>> buy an Advance.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Fares generally are high because the government is trying to make the
>>>> railways self-funding. Please explain who is using Advance ticket prices
>>>> to justify other fares, apart from your own prejudices.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Rail Delivery Group spokespersons passim. Whenever the price of tickets to
>>> London is raised round here in the press the line that remarkably good
>>> value Advance tickets can be purchased is trotted out. The issue that peak
>>> time fares are egregiously high is never addressed. I’ve stood at the
>>> station watching peak time trains to London leave half full. (Pre covid)
>>>
>>
>> Who defines egregiously high? Have you done a comparison of fares now
>> and, say 30, years ago?
>>
>
> Yes, but not our route. The NRM has pricing for London - Manchester. In
> today’s prices it was around £65 in 1976 compared to a stated £180 today.
>

It was how much in 1976? and for what sort of ticket?

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 04/12/2021 17:50, Tweed wrote:
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On 04/12/2021 17:36, Tweed wrote:
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 04/12/2021 16:42, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On 04/12/2021 13:32, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Railway ticketing is fundamentally broken due the now Byzantine fare
>>>>>>>>>>>> structure, which nobody seems willing to reform. No amount of fiddling with
>>>>>>>>>>>> user interfaces is going to fix that.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> And don't forget that the majority of it, still, was inherited from BR.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> The problem is that any deep reform to fix it (eg, starting again from a
>>>>>>>>>>> blank sheet with no reference to existing fares) is going to have some
>>>>>>>>>>> winners (now with cheaper fares) and some losers (now with more expensive
>>>>>>>>>>> fares) [1], and you can bet which will make headlines and which won't.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> [1] unless accompanied by a reversal of the 'transfer cost from taxpayer to
>>>>>>>>>>> farebox' policy
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I’m not sure I buy the BR argument. Pre privatisation we had singles,
>>>>>>>>>> returns, off peak returns and savers (Intercity to London). …
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Blue and white savers, ISTR. And route specific special offers - I once
>>>>>>>>> got caught with a £10 excess for using a cheap Birmingham to Edinburgh
>>>>>>>>> ticket via Carlisle rather than Newcastle. I’d used the right train on the
>>>>>>>>> way south but just hopped on the first Edinburgh train on the way back.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Sam
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes, but you got an excess (assuming you use the term in its correct
>>>>>>>> technical sense), not your whole ticket disregarded and made to pay again.
>>>>>>>> My main gripe is the Advance ticket, which needlessly ties you to a single
>>>>>>>> train, with draconian penalties if you get on the wrong service. The
>>>>>>>> relatively low cost of Advance fares is always trotted out as justification
>>>>>>>> when the high cost of flexible tickets is complained about.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you don't like advance fares, don't buy one. No-one is forcing you
>>>>>>> to. Meanwhile very many people find them very useful.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My objection to them is they are used to justify the high price of flexible
>>>>>> fares. Off peak fares are high, with the justification that you can always
>>>>>> buy an Advance.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Fares generally are high because the government is trying to make the
>>>>> railways self-funding. Please explain who is using Advance ticket prices
>>>>> to justify other fares, apart from your own prejudices.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Rail Delivery Group spokespersons passim. Whenever the price of tickets to
>>>> London is raised round here in the press the line that remarkably good
>>>> value Advance tickets can be purchased is trotted out. The issue that peak
>>>> time fares are egregiously high is never addressed. I’ve stood at the
>>>> station watching peak time trains to London leave half full. (Pre covid)
>>>>
>>>
>>> Who defines egregiously high? Have you done a comparison of fares now
>>> and, say 30, years ago?
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but not our route. The NRM has pricing for London - Manchester. In
>> today’s prices it was around £65 in 1976 compared to a stated £180 today.
>>
>
> It was how much in 1976? and for what sort of ticket?
>

£9.20

To quote

To try to make an even comparison, in each case the basic Ordinary ticket
price was used, as would be paid by a passenger who arrived at the booking
office intending to travel there and then. Advance purchase and discounted
tickets, whilst always a cheaper option, were excluded; although these have
become a significant proportion of the tickets bought as the years have
passed, we felt it was important to compare like with like.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>
>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>
>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>
>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>>> my phone.
>>>
>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>
>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>> purchases).
>>
>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>>
>
> Well you’d better get used to it or stop travelling by train. The direction
> of all ticketing is heading away from ticket offices and ticket machines,
> and especially the use of cash. It will be salami slices, with a few wrong
> turns along the way, but it will happen.

Which is why I buy my ticket from the staffed ticket office at my local
station. I don’t want the local station staff to be thrown into the dole
queue. The traditional card ticket is appropriate technology, IMO. If the
battery on my phone dies I still have a valid ticket.

--
Jeremy Double

Jeremy Double <jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sod3bh$faq$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:42:25 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 03/12/2021 12:25, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <socvtm$nti$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:43:50 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 03/12/2021 11:14, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <socqrg$o9u$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:17:20 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <soaejt$u8h$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:36:14 on Thu, 2 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> People might get caught out less these days, because when the
>>>>>>>>>>> machine is broken I often saw them taking a photo with their
>>>>>>>>>>> phone (no, m-tickets
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> For which journeys, for example?
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> (I've just done a test almost-purchase of an Ely-Cambridge return
>>>>>>>>>> e-ticket, for example).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I've tried Ely-Brandon just now, and the options are Collection,
>>>>>>>>> Smartcard or Emailed pdf. As discussed before, I have issues regarding
>>>>>>>>> an emailed pdf as fully an m-ticket (although it does qualify as an
>>>>>>>>> e-ticket I suppose).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ely to Liverpool St, only offers Collection (not even ITSO collection).
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Ely to Kings Cross or Kings Lynn, nothing if not inconsistent (although
>>>>>>>>> the KGX ticket would also be valid to LST!) Collection and PDF [so much
>>>>>>>>> for GTR's franchise commitment to roll ITSO out across their whole
>>>>>>>>> network by about four years ago].
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Nice try, but no cigar.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What’s your objection to an emailed pdf?
>>>>>
>>>>>>> This was discussed at great length a few months ago.
>>>>>>> Mainly the need for the email to be sent to a phone, which requires
>>>>>>> an account with the ticket vendor which has such an email address
>>>>>>> associated with it.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that is a problem how?
>>>
>>>>> Because the accounts I have with ticket booking sites are currently
>>>>> associated with email addresses which are delivered to my desktop, not
>>>>> my phone.
>>>>
>>>> Why? You seem to delight in making life unnecessarily complicated for
>>>> yourself and then blaming others for the inconvenience it causes you.
>>>
>>> What would be unnecessarily complicated would be for me to have routine
>>> e-tickets delivered to my phone, because then I'd need to forward them
>>> either to my desktop (which is my preferred audit trail for this kind of
>>> thing, and also the appliance with a printer, which my phone isn't) or
>>> to the person who I bought the ticket for (which is at least half of my
>>> purchases).
>>>
>>> Forwarding stuff from a phone is far more fiddly than from my desktop.
>>>
>>
>> Well you’d better get used to it or stop travelling by train. The direction
>> of all ticketing is heading away from ticket offices and ticket machines,
>> and especially the use of cash. It will be salami slices, with a few wrong
>> turns along the way, but it will happen.
>
> Which is why I buy my ticket from the staffed ticket office at my local
> station. I don’t want the local station staff to be thrown into the dole
> queue. The traditional card ticket is appropriate technology, IMO. If the
> battery on my phone dies I still have a valid ticket.
>

Tried that approach with my bank. Doesn’t stop the branches closing.

On 04/12/2021 07:39, Tweed wrote:

> argument for pricing people off peak trains (hence off peak fares), but
> this idea that you get forced to go on one particular off peak train and
> can’t get the next one (which is equally likely to be carting fresh air
> around) is just daft. If you feel the need to guarantee a seat we already
> have a reservation system.

This illustrates the problem: many people who have got use to cheap
advance tickets (and who probably aren't to be found on trainspotting
newsgroups) might complain about having to pay more so that they could
in theory travel on a train other than the one they are actually going
to travel on.

--
Arthur Figgis

In message <sodlg7$m2g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:07 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>machine
>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>
>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I
>>>>>might buy
>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>
>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open
>>>>the PDF
>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>need an
>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>
>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.

>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the
>>general public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as
>>possible pre-navigating them through the maze.
>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without
>>the added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible,
>>and others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend
>>quite a while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface
>>designed by a Vogon.
>
>I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on
>my phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>
>I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>
>I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.

Once upon a time I used to create lots of unique email addresses, for
different ecommerce sites, mainly to see if any of them leaked to
spammers (they didn't, apart from one).

But it doesn't scale.

What's so special about train tickets that *I* have to bend over
backwards for *them*, rather than eBay, AirBnB, Tesco, and about two
hundred other people I might be buying things from online?

I did experiment, as an exception, with making some new email addresses
for the purposes of delay/repay claims, for myself and wife, at three
different TOCs; so that's six new addresses. But all it did was convince
me the tail was wagging the dog.

ps There's another wrinkle to this: my domain email is not associated
with my phone. Not only does Google go out of its way to force me to
invent a new gmail address for the purpose, it would be completely
unmanageable (aka yet again, doesn't scale) for my correspondence
emails to all end up on a phone.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sofqj8$2tb$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:31:20 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>
>Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.

I understand it perfectly well, thanks. Not just emails to/from my own
domain, but the various other domains (work and personal) over the
years, and the email hosting sites where I've currently still got three.

I'm in two minds whether having one [domain hosting site for email]
would be cleaner and simpler, or whether having two is better for
resilience. Luckily [?] when Gradwell's hosting service imploded, that
did at least mean I wasn't having to maintain that one as well.

At various times I've also done my own email hosting (partly to walk the
walk, but also because at the time it was likely to be more reliable
than third parties). But I don't do that any more, not least because to
do it properly you need a static IP address, and those are harder to
get.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sog07r$dhj$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:07:38 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 04/12/2021 13:36, Tweed wrote:
>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>>
>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>
>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>
>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>>
>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>
>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>
>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for
>>very many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t
>>convenient for his own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to
>>change, because the system isn’t going to change especially for him.
>
>I agree that emailed pdf tickets can be convenient. However I received
>well over 4,000 emails during August and that's when they become
>inconvenient as it relies on me being at home to either forward to a
>specific email address on my phone or to ftp them there. Searching
>through so many emails on a phone is just not viable.

Emailing pdfs is also very clunky - why can't they push the tickets to
the booking app, in the same way Google Play pushes new apps to your
phone?

Although that begs the question of "what is 'the App' ". As I said the
other day I have rather a large number of train booking apps, as well as
bus booking apps, an electric bike booking app, and all the other
ecommerce apps on the phone.

I have an inkling I might be needing the Uber app later in the week. So
far I've avoided using it, mainly because they don't have any cabs in
the part of the country I live. But if I do travel somewhere and use it,
will I find they insist on emailing me a pdf with the booking details,
or will it magically appear in-app?

[Sort of a genuine question, but I'd be very surprised to find it needed
a pdf viewer.]

>Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>
>I even get emails from a ToC whom I've had no business agreement with
>apart from travelling on their services. I can tell from the email
>address they use exactly who provided it to them.
>
>
>
>

--
Roland Perry

In message <sofqsp$8cv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:25 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>
>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>> need an
>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>
>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>
>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>
>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>>> Vogon.
>>>
>>>
>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>
>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>
>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>
>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>
>The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
>many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient for his
>own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
>isn’t going to change especially for him.

My setup isn't the slightest bit odd, unless you regard the "busy-ness"
of my email environment as fundamentally odd.
--
Roland Perry

On 06/12/2021 07:21, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sodlg7$m2g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:07 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
> martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec
>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I
>>>>>> might  buy
>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>
>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open
>>>>> the  PDF
>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>> need an
>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>
>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>
>>>  My most successful projects have involved understanding what the
>>> general  public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as
>>> possible  pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>  Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without
>>> the  added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible,
>>> and  others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend
>>> quite a  while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface
>>> designed by a  Vogon.
>>
>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on
>> my phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>
>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>> they are easily accessible on my mobile.  It would be even more useful
>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>
>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>
> Once upon a time I used to create lots of unique email addresses, for
> different ecommerce sites, mainly to see if any of them leaked to
> spammers (they didn't, apart from one).
>
> But it doesn't scale.
>
> What's so special about train tickets that *I* have to bend over
> backwards for *them*, rather than eBay, AirBnB, Tesco, and about two
> hundred other people I might be buying things from online?
>
> I did experiment, as an exception, with making some new email addresses
> for the purposes of delay/repay claims, for myself and wife, at three
> different TOCs; so that's six new addresses. But all it did was convince
> me the tail was wagging the dog.
>
> ps There's another wrinkle to this: my domain email is not associated
>    with my phone. Not only does Google go out of its way to force me to
>    invent a new gmail address for the purpose, it would be completely
>    unmanageable (aka yet again, doesn't scale) for my correspondence
>    emails to all end up on a phone.

Once again you are creating non-existent problems. One email address you
only use for tickest, use IMAP so you can get it on your
desktop/laptop/tablet and phone and Bob's a near relative. Works for the
rest of the world.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.