In message <spqflp$5q7$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:48:41 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 20/12/2021 17:11, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spq85f$7rr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:40:31 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>venue on your phone?  Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including
>>>>>>>>>having an entirely separate account just for accessing from
>>>>>>>>>your phone, as being too difficult. Hmm.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set
>>>>>>>>one up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected
>>>>>>>>to do, as self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to
>>>>>>>>keep its TVMs in working order, and have no exclusion clauses
>>>>>>>>in their hectoring signage about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails
>>>>>>>into their normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to
>>>>>>>set up a different email address because nobody else feels it's
>>>>>>>necessary because they all manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than
>>>>>>perhaps a
>>>>>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and
>>>>>>edit the
>>>>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>>>>> back.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
>>>>
>>>> Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
>>>> a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".
>>>
>>> Surely even a visitor from the ladt century can appreciate that editing a
>>> Word document is very different to reading and replying to email?
>>>
>>>>> However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you
>>>>>document they promised (just as an example).
>>>>
>>>> Tick.
>>>>
>>>>> And in dire circumstances I would read a word document on my phone if
>>>>> it were urgent and I had no access to anything bigger. And yes, I can
>>>>> easily get a hundred emails in a day. But none of that would interfere
>>>>> with me receiving and retrieving a train ticket, and I wouldn’t even
>>>>> have to set up a special account for tickets. All my emails appear on
>>>>> my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t face the
>>>>> difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and nor has
>>>>> anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.
>>>>
>>>> That just shows how unrepresentative of the general public people
>>>> posting here are. There's nothing wrong with that, as such, other than
>>>> their failure to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes.
>>>
>>> Yes, the people posting here do less on their phones than most members of
>>> the public.

>> Given that "the public" is about 50m people, I don't think "most of
>>them" do as much on their phones as you claim. There must be some
>>OFCOM stats on this (they do general media literacy studies).
>
>Try working down the street and counting the number of people who don't
>have a mobile phone clutched in their hand.

Round here (yes, I know) most of them. But even those who do, what's the
incidence of them being rail passengers at all, let alone booking their
tickets individually though an app - rather than for example having a
season ticket).
--
Roland Perry

On 20/12/2021 18:02, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spqf87$uta$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:28 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sppvgo$h3v$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:12:56 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket
>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>> actual ticket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't
>>>>>>> help
>>>>>>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a
>>>>>>> typical
>>>>>>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>>>>>>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>>>>>>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>>>>>>> to find on an m-ticket?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode
>>>>>> seems very
>>>>>> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>>>>>> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
>>>>>> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.
>>>>>
>>>>> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you
>>>>> mention in
>>>>> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>>>>>
>>>>> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
>>>>> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
>>>>
>>>> Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated by
>>>> the
>>>> devious but dim.
>>>
>>> I'm not sure I'd know how to manipulate the in-app text.
>>
>> Because if it’s a pdf you can edit it, or more primitively photoshop the
>> text, possibly from a screenshot if you are being very low tech. The
>> common
>> fraud is to try to alter the date.
>
> You know that an in-app ticket is a pdf? They present quite differently
> to the same information arriving by email.
>
> Most people probably don't even have the equivalent of a "File Manager"
> on their phone, to even start poking around to find where the travel app
> has squirreled away the data.
>
> But as you ought to expect by now, I have such an app on my phone, and I
> see there's an "android" folder, with 129 sub-folders [I have a lot of
> apps on my phone] including for example wales.tfw.rail.app created on
> Dec 14, 2021 and com.tfwrail created on Dec 4, 2020.
>
> Neither have any files inside (or ones it's prepared to disclose, anyway).
>
> Perhaps someone who has a done a purchase off them can tell us if they
> see a file inside, and what filetype it is.
>
> We can then see is there's an app available which will edit that
> filetype (I think if I was writing this stuff, I'd probably at the
> very least obscurely checksum it to prevent forgeries).

I'm having problems accessing the android sub-folders which I suspect is
an Android limitation. What file manager are you using?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spqflp$5q7$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:48:41 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 20/12/2021 17:11, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spq85f$7rr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:40:31 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sppv4r$99f$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:06:35 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> venue on your phone?  Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including
>>>>>>>>>> having an entirely separate account just for accessing from
>>>>>>>>>> your phone, as being too difficult. Hmm.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set
>>>>>>>>> one up.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected
>>>>>>>>> to do, as self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to
>>>>>>>>> keep its TVMs in working order, and have no exclusion clauses
>>>>>>>>> in their hectoring signage about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails
>>>>>>>> into their normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to
>>>>>>>> set up a different email address because nobody else feels it's
>>>>>>>> necessary because they all manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than
>>>>>>> perhaps a
>>>>>>> hundred emails a day on a phone. And ask them how they view and
>>>>>>> edit the
>>>>>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>>>>>> back.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because no sane person attempts to edit a word document on their phone.
>>>>>
>>>>> Exactly. Phones are not a suitable medium for most email, other than as
>>>>> a "pager" to say "go deal with this on your PC".
>>>>
>>>> Surely even a visitor from the ladt century can appreciate that editing a
>>>> Word document is very different to reading and replying to email?
>>>>
>>>>>> However, it’s useful to see that someone has actually sent you
>>>>>> document they promised (just as an example).
>>>>>
>>>>> Tick.
>>>>>
>>>>>> And in dire circumstances I would read a word document on my phone if
>>>>>> it were urgent and I had no access to anything bigger. And yes, I can
>>>>>> easily get a hundred emails in a day. But none of that would interfere
>>>>>> with me receiving and retrieving a train ticket, and I wouldn’t even
>>>>>> have to set up a special account for tickets. All my emails appear on
>>>>>> my iPhone, my iPad and my computers. I simply don’t face the
>>>>>> difficulties that you appear to have imposed upon yourself, and nor has
>>>>>> anyone else from what’s been said in this thread.
>>>>>
>>>>> That just shows how unrepresentative of the general public people
>>>>> posting here are. There's nothing wrong with that, as such, other than
>>>>> their failure to be able to put themselves in other people's shoes.
>>>>
>>>> Yes, the people posting here do less on their phones than most members of
>>>> the public.
>
>>> Given that "the public" is about 50m people, I don't think "most of
>>> them" do as much on their phones as you claim. There must be some
>>> OFCOM stats on this (they do general media literacy studies).
>>
>> Try working down the street and counting the number of people who don't
>> have a mobile phone clutched in their hand.
>
> Round here (yes, I know) most of them. But even those who do, what's the
> incidence of them being rail passengers at all, let alone booking their
> tickets individually though an app - rather than for example having a
> season ticket).

Well you’ve had first hand (well second hand to be strictly accurate)
evidence from a gripper that works multiple types of routes but still want
to argue that people don’t use phone tickets. It seems once an idea is in
your mind nothing can shake it.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spnv2l$ot5$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:53:09 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spn7ch$nbf$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:08:49 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spj30t$ffe$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:29:49 on Fri, 17 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear to cope fine
>>>>>>>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first place, or
>>>>>>> if they do, have so little other email traffic that the other couple of
>>>>>>> hundred emails a day which serious email users receive, don't swamp
>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Evidence, please.
>>>>>
>>>>> Apart from the salami-slicing I described in a posting a few minutes
>>>>> ago, I just don't see that many people waving PDFs (of any kind) at
>>>>> gates and grippers.
>>>>
>>>> On the relatively few times I’ve been on trains in the last couple
>>>> of years I can echo other posters’ experience that a significant
>>>> number of other passengers wave phones at grippers and gates. I
>>>> can’t tell if what they are displaying are PDFs, if that’s
>>>> what’s important to you. In-app wallets might contain, PDFs, of course.
>>>
>>> Of a train with perhaps 200 people on it, how many? And are these
>>> largely inner suburban, outer suburban, or intercity-style trains?
>>
>> Having just quizzed a conveniently nearby ticketing person about this, the
>> answer is approximately 150 out of your 200 passengers, and no difference
>> across train types. Only ten people on the train would be using ITSO.
>
> I'm astonished that only 40 of those 200 would be using paper tickets.
>
> When I went to London the other week, and a trainload of people went
> through the barriers at Kings Cross, I don't recall a single one of them
> waving a phone. But next time I'll make a point of lurking near the
> barriers and try to do an actual count.

You should try the barriers at Huddersfield station when the college
students from Dewsbury are going through. Almost all of them are using
phones to open the barriers. I am very much in the minority in putting a
card ticket into the barrier

--
Jeremy Double

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:19:52 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>
>>>> WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
>>>> but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
>>>> data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.
>>>
>>> The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
>>> choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
>>
>> Hmmm. Is there an actual definition of what constitutes Social Media?
>>
>> By your definition, email is social media.
>
> Some definitions of social media would, indeed, include email. And, for
> that matter, Usenet. There isn't really a standard definition, because
> there's no organisation with the authority to define standards.
>
>> WhatsApp may allow communication in groups, but what you see is stuff
>> specifically sent to you. It doesn't allow you seek out other groups to
>> join, it doesn't allow you to post stuff for anyone to see.
>
> The Wikipedia page on social media notes that WhatsApp (and similar
> systems) is "sometimes" referred to as a social media service, but
> doesn't include it in its list of examples of undisputed social media
> services (such as Facebook, Twitter, TikTok and Baidu).
>
> Personally, I wouldn't call WhatsApp social media. To me, one of the key
> elements of social media is that it is media, in the same sense as
> non-social media. That is, it is a means whereby people can use the
> platform to publish their content to anyone who wishes to consume it.
> Anyone can view my tweets, anyone can view my Instagram posts and anyone
> can view the majority of my Facebook posts. To that extent, I am using
> them all as a broadcast platform. Even with Facebook's ability to
> restrict consumption of certain content to certain people, and the
> ability to create closed groups in which content is not available to
> non-members, it is still, fundamentally, structured around a system
> whereby content is public. That's simply not possible on WhatsApp; the
> system has no facility to make a public post and there are no
> workarounds which can replicate that aspect. A group facility isn't the
> same thing; plenty of instant messaging systems have had that for a long
> time (anyone else remember IRC?), but even the largest groups are still
> closed groups.

As Nadine Dorries recently discovered…

On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 11:19:23 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ka1vrgdi22hdk3ibvtlot3fhgci97rlkrf@4ax.com>, at 19:41:44 on
>Sun, 19 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 13:25:58 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <28ctrgt9u06qhp5leopokklk5kn6obdu65@4ax.com>, at 04:24:36 on
>>>Sun, 19 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>>>remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>>I've not encountered it when buying from Screwfix, Amazon or AliExpress
>>>>>>>to name but a few sites I buy from most frequently.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>I get Screwfix invoices e-mailed as PDFs, (usually before I am out of
>>>>>>the shop door).
>>>>>
>>>>>But if you order in advance, does the shop require you to show it on
>>>>>your phone, before handing over the goods?
>>>>>
>>>>Stating last four digits and surname generally sufficed during the
>>>>"only one person in the shop" period
>>>
>>>I've only quoted the last-four-digits for ages (long before Covid) and
>>>then they ask *me* if I'm Mr Perry.
>>>
>>>>but I suspect if I had gone to collect something expensive then they
>>>>might have been a bit more stringent.
>>>
>>>Perhaps that depends on the definition of "expensive". My average order
>>>is about £25.
>>>
>>There are some fairly expensive power tools and other equipment which
>>are more lucrative targets for interception. As with my branches, they
>>might recognise you from previous visits anyway.
>
>They have a high staff turnover, and their typically glazed expression
>indicates they are following a script.
>
They seem fairly intelligent round here, the counter staff profile
suggesting maybe a significant proportion of students working part
time among longer term staff.

>>>>Now that I actually get to the counter
>>>
>>>They didn't let you near the counter during Covid? here they did,
>>>although with only two customers in the store at a time.
>>>
>>A lot of branches put a table in the doorway (as also did some
>>retailers such as e.g. Dunelm who were getting by with click and
>>collect) so you never went in. Some continued to do so after others
>>had screens installed; the public side of the counter varies quite a
>>bit in size between branches, those located in ordinary shop-fronts
>>tending to be the smallest.
>
>Every Screwfix I've been to was identical. Four tills and a counter/flap
>at the far side of a room abut twenty ft square.
>
Possibly a dimension consequent to use of standard-ish warehouse units
but a lot of branches are also in shop units of differing sizes and
ages. The smallest I use is Battersea which is in a parade of shops
with the counter sideways-on to the door; most others are in warehouse
units with the counter facing the door but still with distinct
differences in the size of the customer area.

>>>The main restriction was withdrawing the Argos-style order-in-store,
>>>and going click-and-collect only.
>>>
>>>>I usually hold the phone out anyway as a screen and mask tend to get in
>>>>the way of conversation; at other collection places for online-order
>>>>packages this is usual so that the barcode/ QR code can be scanned.
>>>
>>>What other places?
>>>
>>The assortment of small shops doing the click and collect for goods
>>delivered via Amazon, Collect+ and others.
>
>Collect+ has a problem with eBay orders, in that the pickup details
>don't have a barcode, which flummoxes the staff. It's taken me twenty
>minutes to pick something up, after all the staff had had go at trying
>to work out how to circumvent the system.
>
I've just looked at an Aldi delivery that used Collect+ and it has a
barcode. Inconsistent working or a missing barcode?

>>>The main other on I've done click-and-collect is
>>>Tesco, and all they've wanted is my name (yes, that does seem a little
>>>informal, but then they have a very short [~1hr?] collection window,
>>>rather than Screwfix's 21 days).
>>>
>>"Meet us in the car park. We're in the big orange/whatever van, not to
>>be confused with the chap in the black BMW delivering other stuff."
>>
>>The short collection window is presumably due to the presence of
>>perishables in combination with the vehicle possibly serving several
>>locations.
>
>The click-and-collect at my Tesco is a permanent shed (pre-Covid) in
>their overflow car park. This from 2014: <https://goo.gl/maps/qZRH6x4fD3
>d4ucWs6>
>
That is a bit like the Old Kent Road branch of ASDA which seems to be
in use for most daytime hours. The other dozen or so of
Sainsburys/Tesco/Morrison/ASDA that I see are all vans parked for a
couple of hours or so in the car park, suggesting there is
insufficient business to justify installing a shed (although ISTR
there might be a couple of places visited less often where the click
and collect is actually inside the shop).

>I think the strict time windows are so they don't have to pick the
>entire day's deliverables at dawn, rather than because the items are
>perishable.

On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 11:33:06 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <spnngq$5d4$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:44:09 on Sun, 19 Dec
>2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>>On 19/12/2021 16:08, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spng2v$hlh$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:37:19 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> As I said, I don't regularly use Tesco. In other shops, and I'm
>>>>>sure in
>>>>> Tesco of old, such yellow price labels highlighted a deal available to
>>>>> everyone. Particularly as the big wording shouts "MEAL DEAL" (/etc)
>>>>>and the
>>>>> "for clubcard holders" is in much smaller print.
>>>>
>>>> Back to my example of the Tesco scam deal for club card holders. Taylor’s
>>>> port, £15, £10 for club card holders. I’ve since discovered said port is
>>>> £10 in Morrisons.
>>> That appears to be a current promotional offer (Xmas perhaps, I'm
>>>told it's coming up).
>>> Sainsbury's has it at £10 - "£5 off".
>>> Waitrose £10.50 ("was £15.75") <<- never knowingly over-sold.
>>> Asda £11 ("was £15")
>>> But Morrisons.com wins: £9 ("was £15")
>>> You were robbed, buying it for a tenner in one of their stores.
>>> ps Tesco.com £10, Clubcard price, £15 everyone else.
>>> What I hope we can agree on, though, is the wide agreement that the
>>>normal price is £15. And perhaps one shouldn't ever buy it the rest
>>>of the year.
>>
>>I don't agree.
>>
>>Today's price is about £10 in all stores except Tesco. Today's price
>>in Tesco is £15 unless you happen to have a clubcard on you.
>
>Surely everyone has a Clubcard on their phone?
>
No, it is on a key ring with the others*. Total memory used = nil.

*Except Lidl which takes up 134Mb and is probably an early choice for
dumping if/when any memory needs to be freed.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spq6aj$ui$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:07 on Mon, 20 Dec 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spnv7h$pt0$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:55:45 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spjh5l$pgb$2@dont-email.me>, at 02:31:17 on Sat, 18 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>>>>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>>>>>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
>>>>>> difficult. Hmm.
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't declined it. As I've said multiple times I have set one up.
>>>>>
>>>>> It's just not something I think passengers should be expected to do, as
>>>>> self-defence for when the TOC can't be bothered to keep its TVMs in
>>>>> working order, and have no exclusion clauses in their hectoring signage
>>>>> about compulsory ticket areas.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody except you [1] has trouble with receiving such emails into their
>>>> normal email account. Nobody else expects to have to set up a different
>>>> email address because nobody else feels it's necessary because they all
>>>> manage quite successfully without doing so!
>>>>
>>>> [1] ok, except you and a handful of other people
>>>
>>> I'll happily exchange notes with anyone dealing with more than perhaps a
>>> hundred emails a day on a phone.
>>
>> How many people who receive that many emails (presumably for business
>> reasons?) don't have a separate personal email account?
>
> More than half the emails I get are notification from various social
> media (and other) platforms, circulars from vendors (eg TfW saying they
> have a new website), mailing lists and so on. Very few are directly
> concerned with the various professional activities I've been involved
> with the last decade. Not least (and I suppose this might colour my
> attitude) because few of the people I was working with used email very
> much at all.
>

Oh, I thought you meant hundreds of actually important emails per day, not
hundreds of those borderline-spam-but-not-quite emails! Surely most of
those can be ignored or deleted?

>>> And ask them how they view and edit the
>>> twenty-page word documents contained in some of them, and send them
>>> back.
>>
>> Nobody's suggesting you should *only* do email on your phone.
>
> That's just back to the discussion we've already had, about multiple
> email addresses and/or filtering what gets sent to a phone.

I have four email 'addresses' - hotmail (main), work, and two domains
(little used). I can trivially access any of them from either phone or
computer.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <18d1sg1dchrbrhblonh3l4b9bjcrggnakk@4ax.com>, at 17:10:37 on
> Mon, 20 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> remarked:
>> On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:19:52 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spd3ci$4i2$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:59:14 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>
>>>>> WhatsApp isn't social media. Yes it's recently been purchased by Facebook,
>>>>> but it's still a simple messaging app - basically texting by WiFi/mobile
>>>>> data, rather than by the (potentially chargeable) SMS system.
>>>>
>>>> The one-to-many [and anyone in the group replying] nature (should you
>>>> choose to use it) of WhatsApp is definitely social media.
>>>
>>> Hmmm. Is there an actual definition of what constitutes Social Media?
>>>
>>> By your definition, email is social media.
>>
>> Some definitions of social media would, indeed, include email. And, for
>> that matter, Usenet. There isn't really a standard definition, because
>> there's no organisation with the authority to define standards.
>
> I've spent much of the past 20yrs talking to politicians, regulators and
> so on, who were on a quest to find out "who is running the Internet",
> and tell them to pull their socks up.
>
> The lack of a central authority hasn't stopped them introducing
> legislation that refers to social media, and it's fairly well understood
> what the expression means.
>

I would hazard a guess that Facebook, Instagram, Twitter and TikTok fall
inside that definition, but WhatsApp and email fall outside. What about
YouTube comments sections, or the multitudinous discussion forums?

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>
> I have four email 'addresses' - hotmail (main), work, and two domains
> (little used). I can trivially access any of them from either phone or
> computer.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

I have a similar arrangement, all emails readable on all platforms. It’s
only Roland who feels the need to restrict what goes where.

In message <spqj1j$s1r$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:11 on Mon, 20 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 20/12/2021 18:02, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <spqf87$uta$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:28 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <sppvgo$h3v$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:12:56 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket
>>>>>>>>>is the
>>>>>>>>> actual ticket.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it
>>>>>>>>doesn't help
>>>>>>>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a
>>>>>>>>typical
>>>>>>>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>>>>>>>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>>>>>>>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>>>>>>>> to find on an m-ticket?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode
>>>>>>>seems very
>>>>>>> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>>>>>>> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to, from,
>>>>>>> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you
>>>>>>mention in
>>>>>> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a barcode
>>>>>> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated
>>>>>by the
>>>>> devious but dim.
>>>>
>>>> I'm not sure I'd know how to manipulate the in-app text.
>>>
>>> Because if it’s a pdf you can edit it, or more primitively photoshop the
>>> text, possibly from a screenshot if you are being very low tech. The
>>>common
>>> fraud is to try to alter the date.
>> You know that an in-app ticket is a pdf? They present quite
>>differently to the same information arriving by email.
>> Most people probably don't even have the equivalent of a "File
>>Manager" on their phone, to even start poking around to find where
>>the travel app has squirreled away the data.
>> But as you ought to expect by now, I have such an app on my phone,
>>and I see there's an "android" folder, with 129 sub-folders [I have a
>>lot of apps on my phone] including for example wales.tfw.rail.app
>>created on Dec 14, 2021 and com.tfwrail created on Dec 4, 2020.
>> Neither have any files inside (or ones it's prepared to disclose,
>>anyway).

>> Perhaps someone who has a done a purchase off them can tell us if
>>they see a file inside, and what filetype it is.
>> We can then see is there's an app available which will edit that
>>filetype (I think if I was writing this stuff, I'd probably at the
>> very least obscurely checksum it to prevent forgeries).
>
>I'm having problems accessing the android sub-folders which I suspect
>is an Android limitation. What file manager are you using?

CX File Explorer.

(I note there's also one called simply "File Manager", which I suppose
must be part of the bundle from LG - I can't get it to divulge any
identifying information other than v6.20.7, which isn't remotely the
same as the Android version - hadn't noticed it before.)
--
Roland Perry

On 21/12/2021 07:14, Tweed wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>
>>
>> I have four email 'addresses' - hotmail (main), work, and two domains
>> (little used). I can trivially access any of them from either phone or
>> computer.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>>
>
> I have a similar arrangement, all emails readable on all platforms. It’s
> only Roland who feels the need to restrict what goes where.
>
It's not only Roland. I have between 100 and 300 emails daily. Most
can be safely ignored when I'm not at home and, quite frankly, I don't
want them cluttering up my phone.

I do have a personal email address for friends and relatives which I do
monitor on my phone. Unfortunately this has leaked by three hot mail
users and the amount of spam exceeds the rest.

Examining my incoming email from ToCs the unwanted emails outnumber the
wanted ones.

As far as I'm concerned emailing railway tickets direct to my phone is
not viable. Fortunately TfW m-ticketing works well.

When are rover m-tickets going to be introduced and why can't I transfer
my railcards to my phone?

On 21/12/2021 09:25, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spqj1j$s1r$1@dont-email.me>, at 18:46:11 on Mon, 20 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 20/12/2021 18:02, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <spqf87$uta$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:41:28 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sppvgo$h3v$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:12:56 on Mon, 20 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket
>>>>>>>>>> is the
>>>>>>>>>> actual ticket.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it
>>>>>>>>> doesn't  help
>>>>>>>>> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a
>>>>>>>>> typical
>>>>>>>>> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
>>>>>>>>> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
>>>>>>>>> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
>>>>>>>>> to find on an m-ticket?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Having the information about the ticket encoded into the barcode
>>>>>>>> seems very
>>>>>>>> sensible, even if the actual validity confirmation is online - the
>>>>>>>> gripper's mobile device can then at least confirm the date, to,
>>>>>>>> from,
>>>>>>>> class, railcard etc data of the ticket, even in a not-spot.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The barcode rail tickets I've had include the information you
>>>>>>> mention in
>>>>>>> plain text anyway, for the benefit of the passenger.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Trivially, otherwise how do they know (a) they have received a
>>>>>>> barcode
>>>>>>> for the relevant trip and (b) know which one to show to the gripper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because the human readable text can be, and has been, manipulated
>>>>>> by  the
>>>>>> devious but dim.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm not sure I'd know how to manipulate the in-app text.
>>>>
>>>> Because if it’s a pdf you can edit it, or more primitively photoshop
>>>> the
>>>> text, possibly from a screenshot if you are being very low tech. The
>>>> common
>>>> fraud is to try to alter the date.
>>>  You know that an in-app ticket is a pdf? They present quite
>>> differently  to the same information arriving by email.
>>>  Most people probably don't even have the equivalent of a "File
>>> Manager"  on their phone, to even start poking around to find where
>>> the travel app  has squirreled away the data.
>>>  But as you ought to expect by now, I have such an app on my phone,
>>> and I  see there's an "android" folder, with 129 sub-folders [I have
>>> a lot of  apps on my phone] including for example wales.tfw.rail.app
>>> created on  Dec 14, 2021 and com.tfwrail created on Dec 4, 2020.
>>>  Neither have any files inside (or ones it's prepared to disclose,
>>> anyway).
>
>>>  Perhaps someone who has a done a purchase off them can tell us if
>>> they  see a file inside, and what filetype it is.
>>>  We can then see is there's an app available which will edit that
>>> filetype (I think if I was writing this stuff, I'd probably at the
>>> very least obscurely checksum it to prevent forgeries).
>>
>> I'm having problems accessing the android sub-folders which I suspect
>> is an Android limitation. What file manager are you using?
>
> CX File Explorer.
>
> (I note there's also one called simply "File Manager", which I suppose
> must be part of the bundle from LG - I can't get it to divulge any
> identifying information other than v6.20.7, which isn't remotely the
> same as the Android version - hadn't noticed it before.)

I was using CX File Explorer. I cannot see any files in either
wales.tfw.rail.app or com.tfwrail although I can see some in other
directories at the same level. I do have expired tickets in both apps.

In message <spsbcd$t9j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:40 on Tue, 21 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:

>>>>  Perhaps someone who has a done a purchase off them can tell us if
>>>>they  see a file inside, and what filetype it is.
>>>>  We can then see is there's an app available which will edit that
>>>>filetype (I think if I was writing this stuff, I'd probably at the
>>>> very least obscurely checksum it to prevent forgeries).
>>>
>>> I'm having problems accessing the android sub-folders which I
>>>suspect is an Android limitation. What file manager are you using?

>> CX File Explorer.

>> (I note there's also one called simply "File Manager", which I
>>suppose must be part of the bundle from LG - I can't get it to
>>divulge any identifying information other than v6.20.7, which isn't
>>remotely the same as the Android version - hadn't noticed it before.)
>
>I was using CX File Explorer. I cannot see any files in either
>wales.tfw.rail.app or com.tfwrail although I can see some in other
>directories at the same level. I do have expired tickets in both apps.

Which leaves us with the unresolved issue: where are the files
containing the in-app data stored, and how easy is it for people to
access, edit and use a substitute fraudulently?

Tweed: over to you.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spq6aj$ui$3@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:07 on Mon, 20 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spnt49$c99$5@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:53 on Sun, 19 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:30:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>>>>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>>>>>> unnecessary
>>>>>
>>>>> And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
>>>>> such tickets).
>>>>
>>>> Wne I've been on long-distance train journeys over the last five years
>>>> it's seemed to me that just about everyone under 40 proffers their
>>>> phone to the gripper. So I don't think 'very few' stands.
>>>
>>> I see plenty of people offering their phone screen to the scanner on the
>>> ticket barriers to exit the station, too.
>>
>> Care to estimate the percentage?
>
>No, because I don't stand and study people going through the barriers, I
>just see people ahead of me in the crowd waving phones.

You could still estimate a percentage based on that. Assuming of course
they are waving phones because they have tickets on them, rather than
WhatsApp messages from their classmates.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spq6ak$ui$4@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:08 on Mon, 20 Dec 2021,
Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spnt49$c99$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:53 on Sun, 19 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>>>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>>>>
>>>>> I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>>>>> unnecessary.
>>>>
>>>> And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
>>>> such tickets).
>>>
>>> OK let's leave train tickets out of it then. You said "what percentage of
>>> ordinary members of the public do you think set up special email addresses
>>> for different online purchases?". I still maintain that vanishingly few
>>> ordinary members of the public do so. Surely you're not now going to claim
>>> that none of them buy anything online?
>>
>> I'm sure loads of them buy things online, but they don't often involve a
>> fulfilment process that requires them to present a barcode to the
>> merchant (or even the delivery man).
>>
>> And even when they do, it's probably not on-the-hoof minutes after
>> having placed the order, thus requiring the barcode to be on their
>> phone.
>
>And yet for those things which do require the emailed barcode to be shown
>(theatre, museum, zoo, farm park etc) I'd suggest that the majority will be
>quite successfully shown on phones.

How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).
--
Roland Perry

In message
<1030693177.661725467.091218.jmd.nospam-btinternet.com@news.individual.ne
t>, at 20:39:33 on Mon, 20 Dec 2021, Jeremy Double
<jmd.nospam@btinternet.com> remarked:

>> When I went to London the other week, and a trainload of people went
>> through the barriers at Kings Cross, I don't recall a single one of them
>> waving a phone. But next time I'll make a point of lurking near the
>> barriers and try to do an actual count.
>
>You should try the barriers at Huddersfield station when the college
>students from Dewsbury are going through. Almost all of them are using
>phones to open the barriers. I am very much in the minority in putting a
>card ticket into the barrier

Whereas the students I see getting off trains don't use phones at all.
Is that a regional difference, or perhaps because on that flow there
might not be any m-tickets available?

In your opinion, are these students of yours buying day-tickets, or do
they have a season loaded on their phone?
--
Roland Perry

In message <n2t0sg5mi1pblduls6sm6ee1o4n0o72m0u@4ax.com>, at 12:18:57 on
Mon, 20 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>On Mon, 20 Dec 2021 11:38:47 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>Ken <ken@birchanger.com> wrote:
>>> On Sun, 19 Dec 2021 18:53:09 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>> <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spn7ch$nbf$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:08:49 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <spj30t$ffe$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:29:49 on Fri, 17 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear
>>>>>>>>>>to cope fine
>>>>>>>>>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first
>>>>>>>>>place, or
>>>>>>>>> if they do, have so little other email traffic that the other
>>>>>>>>>couple of
>>>>>>>>> hundred emails a day which serious email users receive, don't swamp
>>>>>>>>> them.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Evidence, please.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apart from the salami-slicing I described in a posting a few minutes
>>>>>>> ago, I just don't see that many people waving PDFs (of any kind) at
>>>>>>> gates and grippers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On the relatively few times I?ve been on trains in the last
>>>>>>couple of years I can echo other posters? experience that a
>>>>>>significant number of other passengers wave phones at grippers
>>>>>>and gates. I can?t tell if what they are displaying are PDFs, if
>>>>>>that?s what?s important to you. In-app wallets might contain, PDFs, of course.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of a train with perhaps 200 people on it, how many? And are these
>>>>> largely inner suburban, outer suburban, or intercity-style trains?
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Having just quizzed a conveniently nearby ticketing person about this, the
>>>> answer is approximately 150 out of your 200 passengers, and no difference
>>>> across train types. Only ten people on the train would be using ITSO.
>>>>
>>> Don't you just hate it when people are rude enough to ruin good
>>> arguments by introducing facts?
>>
>>Phone ticketing has become mainstream. Just like air travel (when that was
>>a thing). For many years people would still be waving print at home tickets
>>and then all of a sudden it flipped to on phone tickets. Now you hardly see
>>anyone presenting a paper boarding pass.
>
>Shhh, don't tell Roland, who'll have a 100 reasons why phone boarding
>cards won't work, because they didn't work for him when he used to
>travel on bmiBaby.

How many of those boarding cards are sent as emailed PDFs, rather than
in-app?
--
Roland Perry

In message <2uv1sgpk0ok7ok0606iqmujut4b42a0gl1@4ax.com>, at 22:45:08 on
Mon, 20 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:

>>Collect+ has a problem with eBay orders, in that the pickup details
>>don't have a barcode, which flummoxes the staff. It's taken me twenty
>>minutes to pick something up, after all the staff had had go at trying
>>to work out how to circumvent the system.
>>
>I've just looked at an Aldi delivery that used Collect+ and it has a
>barcode. Inconsistent working or a missing barcode?

It's been consistent(-ly broken) the last few Collect+ orders that
eBay suggested I opt for. The store with the collection facility is
only a few minutes away, and it beats me having to fret about being
at home at the random time a Herpes courier decides to drop a parcel
behind my neighbour's wheelie bin and run away.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spsaqt$psg$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:38:20 on Tue, 21 Dec
2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>On 21/12/2021 07:14, Tweed wrote:
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>
>>> I have four email 'addresses' - hotmail (main), work, and two domains
>>> (little used). I can trivially access any of them from either phone or
>>> computer.
>>>
>> I have a similar arrangement, all emails readable on all platforms.
>>It’s only Roland who feels the need to restrict what goes where.
>>
>It's not only Roland. I have between 100 and 300 emails daily. Most
>can be safely ignored when I'm not at home and, quite frankly, I don't
>want them cluttering up my phone.
>
>I do have a personal email address for friends and relatives which I do
>monitor on my phone. Unfortunately this has leaked by three hot mail
>users and the amount of spam exceeds the rest.
>
>Examining my incoming email from ToCs the unwanted emails outnumber the
>wanted ones.
>
>As far as I'm concerned emailing railway tickets direct to my phone is
>not viable. Fortunately TfW m-ticketing works well.
>
>When are rover m-tickets going to be introduced and why can't I
>transfer my railcards to my phone?

Having said that, my wife has recently got a railcard, and somewhat
against her wishes the only expedient delivery method was to her phone.

One of the criticisms of the new TfW app is that railcard ownership
isn't "sticky" and has to be re-asserted for every new purchase.
--
Roland Perry

On Tue, 21 Dec 2021 14:20:08 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>In message <spsbcd$t9j$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:47:40 on Tue, 21 Dec
>2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>
>>>>>  Perhaps someone who has a done a purchase off them can tell us if
>>>>>they  see a file inside, and what filetype it is.
>>>>>  We can then see is there's an app available which will edit that
>>>>>filetype (I think if I was writing this stuff, I'd probably at the
>>>>> very least obscurely checksum it to prevent forgeries).
>>>>
>>>> I'm having problems accessing the android sub-folders which I
>>>>suspect is an Android limitation. What file manager are you using?
>
>>> CX File Explorer.
>
>>> (I note there's also one called simply "File Manager", which I
>>>suppose must be part of the bundle from LG - I can't get it to
>>>divulge any identifying information other than v6.20.7, which isn't
>>>remotely the same as the Android version - hadn't noticed it before.)
>>
>>I was using CX File Explorer. I cannot see any files in either
>>wales.tfw.rail.app or com.tfwrail although I can see some in other
>>directories at the same level. I do have expired tickets in both apps.
>
>Which leaves us with the unresolved issue: where are the files
>containing the in-app data stored, and how easy is it for people to
>access, edit and use a substitute fraudulently?
>
>Tweed: over to you.

Perhaps there are hidden folders or files, as on PCs?

On 21/12/2021 15:14, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <spsaqt$psg$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:38:20 on Tue, 21 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 21/12/2021 07:14, Tweed wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have four email 'addresses' - hotmail (main), work, and two domains
>>>> (little used). I can trivially access any of them from either phone or
>>>> computer.
>>>>
>>>  I have a similar arrangement, all emails readable on all platforms.
>>> It’s  only Roland who feels the need to restrict what goes where.
>>>
>> It's not only Roland.  I have between 100 and 300 emails daily.  Most
>> can be safely ignored when I'm not at home and, quite frankly, I don't
>> want them cluttering up my phone.
>>
>> I do have a personal email address for friends and relatives which I
>> do monitor on my phone.  Unfortunately this has leaked by three hot
>> mail users and the amount of spam exceeds the rest.
>>
>> Examining my incoming email from ToCs the unwanted emails outnumber
>> the wanted ones.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned emailing railway tickets direct to my phone is
>> not viable.  Fortunately TfW m-ticketing works well.
>>
>> When are rover m-tickets going to be introduced and why can't I
>> transfer my railcards to my phone?
>
> Having said that, my wife has recently got a railcard, and somewhat
> against her wishes the only expedient delivery method was to her phone.
>
> One of the criticisms of the new TfW app is that railcard ownership
> isn't "sticky" and has to be re-asserted for every new purchase.

Not only that but if you have more than one then you have to choose the
most appropriate one for your journey.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spn7ch$nbf$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:08:49 on Sun, 19 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spj30t$ffe$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:29:49 on Fri, 17 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is
>>>>>>>>>>> not viable
>>>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a
>>>>>>>>>> specific email
>>>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear to cope fine
>>>>>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>>>>>
>>>>> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first place, or
>>>>> if they do, have so little other email traffic that the other couple of
>>>>> hundred emails a day which serious email users receive, don't swamp
>>>>> them.
>>>>
>>>> Evidence, please.
>>>
>>> Apart from the salami-slicing I described in a posting a few minutes
>>> ago, I just don't see that many people waving PDFs (of any kind) at
>>> gates and grippers.
>>
>> On the relatively few times I’ve been on trains in the last couple of years
>> I can echo other posters’ experience that a significant number of other
>> passengers wave phones at grippers and gates. I can’t tell if what they
>> are displaying are PDFs, if that’s what’s important to you. In-app wallets
>> might contain, PDFs, of course.
>
> Of a train with perhaps 200 people on it, how many? And are these
> largely inner suburban, outer suburban, or intercity-style trains?

I can’t really help you here, but I see other contributors have answered.
FTR in the last two years or so I have been on the following trains that I
can remember:

Edinburgh-Newcastle LNER
Berwick-on-Tweed-Edinburgh LNER
Edinburgh-Glasgow-Ardrossan and return ScotRail
Norwich-Ely-King’s Lynn GA/GN
North Berwick-Edinburgh ScotRail
Edinburgh-Glasgow and return ScotRail

I don’t remember proportions on each journey, but there were enough people
using phones to be noticeable. I used paper tickets on every journey
(though arriving from N Berwick I obtained the ticket at my destination!).

Sam

--
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Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spq6ak$ui$4@dont-email.me>, at 15:09:08 on Mon, 20 Dec 2021,
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spnt49$c99$3@dont-email.me>, at 18:19:53 on Sun, 19 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>>>>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>>>>>> unnecessary.
>>>>>
>>>>> And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
>>>>> such tickets).
>>>>
>>>> OK let's leave train tickets out of it then. You said "what percentage of
>>>> ordinary members of the public do you think set up special email addresses
>>>> for different online purchases?". I still maintain that vanishingly few
>>>> ordinary members of the public do so. Surely you're not now going to claim
>>>> that none of them buy anything online?
>>>
>>> I'm sure loads of them buy things online, but they don't often involve a
>>> fulfilment process that requires them to present a barcode to the
>>> merchant (or even the delivery man).
>>>
>>> And even when they do, it's probably not on-the-hoof minutes after
>>> having placed the order, thus requiring the barcode to be on their
>>> phone.
>>
>> And yet for those things which do require the emailed barcode to be shown
>> (theatre, museum, zoo, farm park etc) I'd suggest that the majority will be
>> quite successfully shown on phones.
>
> How many of those are in-app (which I am happy with) and how many PDFs
> in the email client (which as you know I have issues with).

When are you going to accept that most people just don’t care which it is?

Sam

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Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spsaqt$psg$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:38:20 on Tue, 21 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 21/12/2021 07:14, Tweed wrote:
>>> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>> I have four email 'addresses' - hotmail (main), work, and two domains
>>>> (little used). I can trivially access any of them from either phone or
>>>> computer.
>>>>
>>> I have a similar arrangement, all emails readable on all platforms.
>>> It’s only Roland who feels the need to restrict what goes where.
>>>
>> It's not only Roland. I have between 100 and 300 emails daily. Most
>> can be safely ignored when I'm not at home and, quite frankly, I don't
>> want them cluttering up my phone.
>>
>> I do have a personal email address for friends and relatives which I do
>> monitor on my phone. Unfortunately this has leaked by three hot mail
>> users and the amount of spam exceeds the rest.
>>
>> Examining my incoming email from ToCs the unwanted emails outnumber the
>> wanted ones.
>>
>> As far as I'm concerned emailing railway tickets direct to my phone is
>> not viable. Fortunately TfW m-ticketing works well.
>>
>> When are rover m-tickets going to be introduced and why can't I
>> transfer my railcards to my phone?
>
> Having said that, my wife has recently got a railcard, and somewhat
> against her wishes the only expedient delivery method was to her phone.

I had no problems getting a physical railcard sent through the post to me
when I signed up a few months ago.
--
Jeremy Double