In message <iq54rgtpldhhrfmck30tcikbfbt00ih2pb@4ax.com>, at 15:00:03 on
Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 10:50:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <mllkqgh7q13p5df5v2ap2gfjpvpqscnuqu@4ax.com>, at 17:46:56 on
>>Fri, 3 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>>On Fri, 03 Dec 2021 17:35:52 +0000, Rupert Moss-Eccardt
>>><nin@moss-eccardt.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 3 Dec 2021 15:32, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <sodc51$dto$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:12:33 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>[snip]
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Why can't your phone access the same email accounts as your desktop?
>>>>>
>>>>> Because the majority of my email is held on POP3 accounts that the
>>>>> client can't access, nor would I want it to. It would be overwhelmed.
>>>>
>>>>The Gmail client on every current Android can happily cope with
>>>>multiple POP3 accounts.
>>
>>It's the gmail client (although I'm using a third party one that
>>everyone says is better) that I have issues with.
>
>What issues are you having?

Trying to fly it through a porthole on a mobile phone.

>>>It can, although accessing POP3 accounts from multiple devices can cause
>>>issues with availability of mail, since mail is supposed to be deleted
>>>from a POP3 account once downloaded. There are workarounds to this, but
>>>they're not reliable. Accessing multiple IMAP (or, for that matter,
>>>Microsoft Exchange, which the Gmail app also supports) accounts is much
>>>more robust and more reliable.
>>>
>>>Having said that, POP3 is now such an antiquated means of handling email
>>>that, in my opinion, anyone still choosing to use it instead of IMAP
>>>deserves all the pain that they are inflicting on themselves. And I'd be
>>>genuinely surprised if any organisation was mandating the use of POP3
>>>for its staff, contractors or members, since IMAP or Exchange gives the
>>>organisation much greater control over the mail (including enforced
>>>retention and deletion schedules), something which is often necessary
>>>for data protection reasons.
>>
>>You've completely missed the point. It's not the transport that's the
>>issue (although I admit I was using "POP3" to contrast with webmail, not
>>with IMAP) bu the usability of a phone to handle large quantities of
>>email, however it arrives there.
>
>I use the Gmail app on multiple accounts that get hundreds of emails a
>day. Email on a phone is always suboptimal in terms of actual
>back-and-forth communication, because the lack of screen space forces
>compromises.

And of course the lack of a keyboard, and other stuff where phones are a
poor substitute for a laptop.

>But as a receptacle for read-only email it works as well as
>can be expected.

Getting back to the actual point - as long as you set up special
accounts and filtering rules, so that the emails you are demanded to
receive on phones by particular organisations, can be picked out from
the crowd.

>>My other phone is connected up to an Exchange server, and the user
>>experience is appalling. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
>
>That sounds like a client issue.

The only client they allow me to use is something called IBM MaaS360,
which to all practical purposes doesn't scale beyond about a dozen
emails a day. It's barely more functional than a pager (but as a pager
works well enough).

>I'm no great fan of Exchange, but it doesn't force any particular
>presentation on the client and there are several mobile apps that
>handle it well enough. The Gmail app connected to Exchange is, possibly
>a little counterintuitively, better than the Gmail app on native Gmail,
>because Exchange, like IMAP, supports proper folders rather than
>Gmail's non-standard concept of labels.

--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 15:20:51 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ul44rgh3pooqqimstcdg7bt0tv3npqfi12@4ax.com>, at 14:46:17 on
>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:
>>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 08:01:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <7jv1rg1f2lkcibd6kvd034ngclblc00730@4ax.com>, at 18:54:35 on
>>>Wed, 8 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>remarked:
>>>>On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:59:43 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>Apple Mail even copes with corporate email. My privately owned phone can
>>>>>pick up the corporate mail from an Exchange server, and if they wish they
>>>>>can remote wipe the corporate email on my phone without affecting my
>>>>>private email boxes.
>>>>
>>>>Apple Mail and Gmail (the default mail app on Android pohones)
>>>
>>>Doesn't Samsung, which has a very large market share, have something
>>>slightly different as the default?
>>
>>I haven't used it, but it appears to be a custom version of Gmail.
>
>Gmail is mainly a platform, not an app, although the two do commonly get
>conflated.

Gmail is both a platform and an app. The app can access both the
platform and other email providers.

>>I haven't tried it, because I haven't felt the need to.
>
>I have felt the need to try many such things because I think it's a bit
>rich to lecture people on what they should be using, if not from
>personal experience.

Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
experience seems to me to be relevant.

>>Gmail (on my phone) and Apple Mail (on my iPad) work fine for me. Both
>>of them support all the email accounts that I use. Looking at Spark on
>>Google Play, I see that it, too, can connect to Gmail, Exchange and
>>IMAP, and can handle multiple email accounts on the same device. It has
>>a few features which Gmail and Apple Mail don't have (such as the
>>ability to schedule email to be sent in the future), but none of them
>>look like the killer feature that would persuade me to switch.
>
>A killer feature could be along the lines of "how can it show me a
>display with a hundred or so waiting emails to pick from, on such a
>small screen"?

I don't think any mobile app could do that, unless you have exceptional
eyesight. The workaround is a good search system.

Mark

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 15:30:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <iq54rgtpldhhrfmck30tcikbfbt00ih2pb@4ax.com>, at 15:00:03 on
>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:
>>On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 10:50:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>
>>>My other phone is connected up to an Exchange server, and the user
>>>experience is appalling. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
>>
>>That sounds like a client issue.
>
>The only client they allow me to use is something called IBM MaaS360,
>which to all practical purposes doesn't scale beyond about a dozen
>emails a day. It's barely more functional than a pager (but as a pager
>works well enough).

It has an average review rating of 1.8 on the Apple app store, and 2.2
on Google Play. So it would appear that your opinion is shared by many
users. But then, if your complaint about railway ticketing by email is
based on your experience of trying to access an email ticket via
MaaS360, then it should be pretty obvious that it isn't the railways
that are to blame for your difficulties.

Mark

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sosifu$rkt$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:46 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 09/12/2021 07:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <soqqhj$pmn$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:37:55 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 08/12/2021 17:30, Tweed wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
>>>>>>>> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>>>>>>> they've  worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and
>>>>>>>> it's that  layer (not the transport) which has the operational
>>>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Get a decent client, there are many around.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject
>>>>>> dropped up
>>>>>> [Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly rated. But MRD
>>>>>> applies I suppose.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which one would you suggest instead?
>>>
>>>>>  Apple Mail. Buy an iPhone :)
>>>>
>>>> Have something that just works? Perish the thought.
>>> I did have an iPhone for a couple of years (a project I was working
>>> on required a full house of Android/Microsoft/Android phones).
>>> The iPhone was not just the most expensive by a factor of at least
>>> two, but also the one I would least have wanted to carry on using in
>>> a personal context.
>>
>> Because of your antipathy to all things Apple no doubt.
>
> To some extent, although I was quite happy with an early iPad until the
> battery died. That had a SIM socket in it too, although I never used it.
> There were also reports that the iOS was not very well integrated with
> SMS.
>
>>> There appears to be a great deal of confusion in this thread between
>>> "working for unambitious people with trivial amounts of email
>>> traffic", and "something which can cope with hundreds of emails and
>>> scores of active folders".
>
>>> It's the latter which I have yet to find a mobile solution for.
>>> Unless of course you count my Windows Laptop with built in GSM modem.
>>> Hands up everyone who has one of these.
>>
>> Why would I lumber myself with something so clumsy when there are much
>> better solutions available.
>
> You've got a phone with a keyboard and 14" screen? I'm impressed.
>
> I bought my wife a later model of essentially the same thing recently,
> but couldn't find one with a SIM socket. Also has a touch screen [hence
> also a tablet mode] and a detachable keyboard, one plus being a battery
> in each half adding up to a full day's use. She uses her phone for
> things that phones are good at (like photos, voice or WhatsApp), and the
> laptop for things it's not (like writing presentations, and multi-person
> Teams calls).
>
> She's rather gone off email, but still gets quite a lot, which I have to
> skim through on her desktop. Where she insists on having Outlook (but
> not Exchange, so no excuse about having the dreadful calendaring
> available too) thus my dislike comes from over two of decades of pain.
>
> Like me she was a fan of Microsoft phones, because the integration
> between phone and desktop was superb. And her discussions with security
> professionals (part of our work then was recommending secure IT
> solutions) confirmed it was also the best in that respect. However, as
> we know, the market didn't agree, so we've had to give that up.

I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email existence
on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad. However, an
iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in, and to compose
replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my multiple subfolder
mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access them if I need to. I can
also see multiple private email accounts. You are not special having heavy
email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.

In message <sosu8e$7ob$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:53:34 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 09/12/2021 11:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <soq8ge$qfh$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:06 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>2021, Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>><ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely
>>>>>>different
>>>>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>>>>
>>>>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>> Not very co-operative, is it!
>>
>>>>  It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>>>
>>> Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
>>>district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was a
>>>"coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th Century,
>>>but a further separation in more recent years.

>> Ours are I think "Central England" vs the larger countrywide one
>>based in Manchester.

>> Talking of which, back in the day there were many CoOp Building
>>Societies, but it wasn't well known that most were one-branch affairs,
>>which gave customers a false sense of security. After a couple of the
>>frailer ones went broke, and no-one to bail them out, a regulator
>>forced them all to merge, to form a new organisation.

>> What name did they pick? Ironically the same as the Consumer Affairs
>>programme which exposed the issue: Nationwide.
>
>That was a long time ago! I thought the name was older than the programme.

I don't think so. For whatever reason I used to watch it nearly every
day, and this sequence of events played out.
--
Roland Perry

In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 15:20:51 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <ul44rgh3pooqqimstcdg7bt0tv3npqfi12@4ax.com>, at 14:46:17 on
>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 08:01:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <7jv1rg1f2lkcibd6kvd034ngclblc00730@4ax.com>, at 18:54:35 on
>>>>Wed, 8 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>remarked:
>>>>>On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:59:43 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>Apple Mail even copes with corporate email. My privately owned phone can
>>>>>>pick up the corporate mail from an Exchange server, and if they wish they
>>>>>>can remote wipe the corporate email on my phone without affecting my
>>>>>>private email boxes.
>>>>>
>>>>>Apple Mail and Gmail (the default mail app on Android pohones)
>>>>
>>>>Doesn't Samsung, which has a very large market share, have something
>>>>slightly different as the default?
>>>
>>>I haven't used it, but it appears to be a custom version of Gmail.
>>
>>Gmail is mainly a platform, not an app, although the two do commonly get
>>conflated.
>
>Gmail is both a platform and an app. The app can access both the
>platform and other email providers.
>
>>>I haven't tried it, because I haven't felt the need to.
>>
>>I have felt the need to try many such things because I think it's a bit
>>rich to lecture people on what they should be using, if not from
>>personal experience.
>
>Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>experience seems to me to be relevant.

But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
phone?

>>>Gmail (on my phone) and Apple Mail (on my iPad) work fine for me. Both
>>>of them support all the email accounts that I use. Looking at Spark on
>>>Google Play, I see that it, too, can connect to Gmail, Exchange and
>>>IMAP, and can handle multiple email accounts on the same device. It has
>>>a few features which Gmail and Apple Mail don't have (such as the
>>>ability to schedule email to be sent in the future), but none of them
>>>look like the killer feature that would persuade me to switch.
>>
>>A killer feature could be along the lines of "how can it show me a
>>display with a hundred or so waiting emails to pick from, on such a
>>small screen"?
>
>I don't think any mobile app could do that, unless you have exceptional
>eyesight. The workaround is a good search system.

Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
it.
--
Roland Perry

In message <7g94rg95nefpoen1cgool5ron50nqmuk3d@4ax.com>, at 15:55:24 on
Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 15:30:49 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <iq54rgtpldhhrfmck30tcikbfbt00ih2pb@4ax.com>, at 15:00:03 on
>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>>On Mon, 6 Dec 2021 10:50:43 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>
>>>>My other phone is connected up to an Exchange server, and the user
>>>>experience is appalling. I wouldn't wish it on my worst enemy.
>>>
>>>That sounds like a client issue.
>>
>>The only client they allow me to use is something called IBM MaaS360,
>>which to all practical purposes doesn't scale beyond about a dozen
>>emails a day. It's barely more functional than a pager (but as a pager
>>works well enough).
>
>It has an average review rating of 1.8 on the Apple app store, and 2.2
>on Google Play. So it would appear that your opinion is shared by many
>users. But then, if your complaint about railway ticketing by email is
>based on your experience of trying to access an email ticket via
>MaaS360, then it should be pretty obvious that it isn't the railways
>that are to blame for your difficulties.

You are kicking at the wrong set of goalposts. My comments were more
general ones about Exchange not being a silver bullet to give a better
experience on mobiles, if you are saddled with a horrible client app.
--
Roland Perry

On 09/12/2021 14:46, Mark Goodge wrote:
> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 08:01:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
> wrote:
>
>> In message <7jv1rg1f2lkcibd6kvd034ngclblc00730@4ax.com>, at 18:54:35 on
>> Wed, 8 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:59:43 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Apple Mail even copes with corporate email. My privately owned phone can
>>>> pick up the corporate mail from an Exchange server, and if they wish they
>>>> can remote wipe the corporate email on my phone without affecting my
>>>> private email boxes.
>>>
>>> Apple Mail and Gmail (the default mail app on Android pohones)
>>
>> Doesn't Samsung, which has a very large market share, have something
>> slightly different as the default?
>
> I haven't used it, but it appears to be a custom version of Gmail.
>
>>> can both
>>> handle multiple, independent IMAP and Exchange accounts in addition to
>>> their native mail accounts. Both support IMAP folders, although Apple
>>> Mail does so a little more elegantly than Gmail.
>>
>> I see no-one has any suggestions for an app to beat Spark, which I
>> repeat was the one recommended as best-of-breed when this topic last
>> cropped up.
>>
>> You *have* all tried it (I assume) and can now give reasons why you
>> think it's not as good as the vendors claim?
>
> I haven't tried it, because I haven't felt the need to. Gmail (on my
> phone) and Apple Mail (on my iPad) work fine for me. Both of them
> support all the email accounts that I use. Looking at Spark on Google
> Play, I see that it, too, can connect to Gmail, Exchange and IMAP, and
> can handle multiple email accounts on the same device. It has a few
> features which Gmail and Apple Mail don't have (such as the ability to
> schedule email to be sent in the future), but none of them look like the
> killer feature that would persuade me to switch.
>
>> [But still isn't good enough for my purposes]
>>
>> I've been using gmail since soon after it was first launched as
>> googlemail.com because I think there was some trademark dispute
>> about "gmail". November 2005 I think.
>>
>> No doubt you all self-declared earlier-than-Roland adopters can
>> claim a date before then.
>
> My oldest Gmail account goes back to googlemail days as well. But the
> oldest email in the account is dated 2007, so not as old as yours.
>

As I was with Demon[1] then I had no need of gmail at the time, I could
have as many mailboxes as I wanted. I still only use gmail as a source
of throwaway addresses to log into pub wifi and similar

[1] The account this is theoretically coming from is the last survivor
of that system.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 09/12/2021 17:14, Tweed wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sosifu$rkt$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:46 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 09/12/2021 07:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <soqqhj$pmn$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:37:55 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 08/12/2021 17:30, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
>>>>>>>>> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>>>>>>>> they've  worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and
>>>>>>>>> it's that  layer (not the transport) which has the operational
>>>>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Get a decent client, there are many around.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject
>>>>>>> dropped up
>>>>>>> [Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly rated. But MRD
>>>>>>> applies I suppose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which one would you suggest instead?
>>>>
>>>>>>  Apple Mail. Buy an iPhone :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Have something that just works? Perish the thought.
>>>> I did have an iPhone for a couple of years (a project I was working
>>>> on required a full house of Android/Microsoft/Android phones).
>>>> The iPhone was not just the most expensive by a factor of at least
>>>> two, but also the one I would least have wanted to carry on using in
>>>> a personal context.
>>>
>>> Because of your antipathy to all things Apple no doubt.
>>
>> To some extent, although I was quite happy with an early iPad until the
>> battery died. That had a SIM socket in it too, although I never used it.
>> There were also reports that the iOS was not very well integrated with
>> SMS.
>>
>>>> There appears to be a great deal of confusion in this thread between
>>>> "working for unambitious people with trivial amounts of email
>>>> traffic", and "something which can cope with hundreds of emails and
>>>> scores of active folders".
>>
>>>> It's the latter which I have yet to find a mobile solution for.
>>>> Unless of course you count my Windows Laptop with built in GSM modem.
>>>> Hands up everyone who has one of these.
>>>
>>> Why would I lumber myself with something so clumsy when there are much
>>> better solutions available.
>>
>> You've got a phone with a keyboard and 14" screen? I'm impressed.
>>
>> I bought my wife a later model of essentially the same thing recently,
>> but couldn't find one with a SIM socket. Also has a touch screen [hence
>> also a tablet mode] and a detachable keyboard, one plus being a battery
>> in each half adding up to a full day's use. She uses her phone for
>> things that phones are good at (like photos, voice or WhatsApp), and the
>> laptop for things it's not (like writing presentations, and multi-person
>> Teams calls).
>>
>> She's rather gone off email, but still gets quite a lot, which I have to
>> skim through on her desktop. Where she insists on having Outlook (but
>> not Exchange, so no excuse about having the dreadful calendaring
>> available too) thus my dislike comes from over two of decades of pain.
>>
>> Like me she was a fan of Microsoft phones, because the integration
>> between phone and desktop was superb. And her discussions with security
>> professionals (part of our work then was recommending secure IT
>> solutions) confirmed it was also the best in that respect. However, as
>> we know, the market didn't agree, so we've had to give that up.
>
> I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email existence
> on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad. However, an
> iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in, and to compose
> replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my multiple subfolder
> mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access them if I need to. I can
> also see multiple private email accounts. You are not special having heavy
> email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.
>
>
>

I get the impression what Roland really needs is a decent pair of glasses.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

On 09/12/2021 17:21, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sosu8e$7ob$3@dont-email.me>, at 12:53:34 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 09/12/2021 11:30, Roland Perry wrote:
>>> In message <soq8ge$qfh$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:30:06 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>> 2021,  Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> On 08/12/2021 11:45, Recliner wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 11:14:01 -0000 (UTC), Sam Wilson
>>>>> <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And of course the two CoOps near me are operated by completely
>>>>>>> different
>>>>>>> organisations, so we need two different cards etc etc.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Interesting - we also have competing CoOps near us.
>>>  Not very co-operative, is it!
>>>
>>>>>  It's funny, I had no idea there were competing Co-Ops.
>>>>
>>>> Historically, they started as separate Co-Ops for each town (or
>>>> district) in Northern England, commencing in Rochdale. There was a
>>>> "coming together" in, I think, the later years of the 20th Century,
>>>> but a further separation in more recent years.
>
>>>  Ours are I think "Central England" vs the larger countrywide one
>>> based  in Manchester.
>
>>>  Talking of which, back in the day there were many CoOp Building
>>> Societies, but it wasn't well known that most were one-branch
>>> affairs, which gave customers a false sense of security. After a
>>> couple of the frailer ones went broke, and no-one to bail them out, a
>>> regulator forced  them all to merge, to form a new organisation.
>
>>>  What name did they pick? Ironically the same as the Consumer Affairs
>>> programme which exposed the issue: Nationwide.
>>
>> That was a long time ago! I thought the name was older than the
>> programme.
>
> I don't think so. For whatever reason I used to watch it nearly every
> day, and this sequence of events played out.

I used to work on it, the downside of that is you don't actually take
much notice of the content. Also more than likely that I didn't work on
that episode.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> wrote:
> On 09/12/2021 17:14, Tweed wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sosifu$rkt$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:46 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 09/12/2021 07:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soqqhj$pmn$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:37:55 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 08/12/2021 17:30, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
>>>>>>>>>> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>>>>>>>>> they've  worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and
>>>>>>>>>> it's that  layer (not the transport) which has the operational
>>>>>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Get a decent client, there are many around.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject
>>>>>>>> dropped up
>>>>>>>> [Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly rated. But MRD
>>>>>>>> applies I suppose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which one would you suggest instead?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Apple Mail. Buy an iPhone :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have something that just works? Perish the thought.
>>>>> I did have an iPhone for a couple of years (a project I was working
>>>>> on required a full house of Android/Microsoft/Android phones).
>>>>> The iPhone was not just the most expensive by a factor of at least
>>>>> two, but also the one I would least have wanted to carry on using in
>>>>> a personal context.
>>>>
>>>> Because of your antipathy to all things Apple no doubt.
>>>
>>> To some extent, although I was quite happy with an early iPad until the
>>> battery died. That had a SIM socket in it too, although I never used it.
>>> There were also reports that the iOS was not very well integrated with
>>> SMS.
>>>
>>>>> There appears to be a great deal of confusion in this thread between
>>>>> "working for unambitious people with trivial amounts of email
>>>>> traffic", and "something which can cope with hundreds of emails and
>>>>> scores of active folders".
>>>
>>>>> It's the latter which I have yet to find a mobile solution for.
>>>>> Unless of course you count my Windows Laptop with built in GSM modem.
>>>>> Hands up everyone who has one of these.
>>>>
>>>> Why would I lumber myself with something so clumsy when there are much
>>>> better solutions available.
>>>
>>> You've got a phone with a keyboard and 14" screen? I'm impressed.
>>>
>>> I bought my wife a later model of essentially the same thing recently,
>>> but couldn't find one with a SIM socket. Also has a touch screen [hence
>>> also a tablet mode] and a detachable keyboard, one plus being a battery
>>> in each half adding up to a full day's use. She uses her phone for
>>> things that phones are good at (like photos, voice or WhatsApp), and the
>>> laptop for things it's not (like writing presentations, and multi-person
>>> Teams calls).
>>>
>>> She's rather gone off email, but still gets quite a lot, which I have to
>>> skim through on her desktop. Where she insists on having Outlook (but
>>> not Exchange, so no excuse about having the dreadful calendaring
>>> available too) thus my dislike comes from over two of decades of pain.
>>>
>>> Like me she was a fan of Microsoft phones, because the integration
>>> between phone and desktop was superb. And her discussions with security
>>> professionals (part of our work then was recommending secure IT
>>> solutions) confirmed it was also the best in that respect. However, as
>>> we know, the market didn't agree, so we've had to give that up.
>>
>> I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email existence
>> on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad. However, an
>> iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in, and to compose
>> replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my multiple subfolder
>> mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access them if I need to. I can
>> also see multiple private email accounts. You are not special having heavy
>> email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.
>>
>>
>>
>
> I get the impression what Roland really needs is a decent pair of glasses.
>

That’s not something I’d considered, but you may have hit the nail on the
head.

In message <sotdh2$r3g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:14:10 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sosifu$rkt$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:46 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>> On 09/12/2021 07:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>> In message <soqqhj$pmn$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:37:55 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 08/12/2021 17:30, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
>>>>>>>>> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>>>>>>>> they've  worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and
>>>>>>>>> it's that  layer (not the transport) which has the operational
>>>>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Get a decent client, there are many around.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject
>>>>>>>dropped up [Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly
>>>>>>>rated. But MRD applies I suppose.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Which one would you suggest instead?
>>>>
>>>>>>  Apple Mail. Buy an iPhone :)
>>>>>
>>>>> Have something that just works? Perish the thought.
>>>> I did have an iPhone for a couple of years (a project I was working
>>>> on required a full house of Android/Microsoft/Android phones).
>>>> The iPhone was not just the most expensive by a factor of at least
>>>> two, but also the one I would least have wanted to carry on using in
>>>> a personal context.
>>>
>>> Because of your antipathy to all things Apple no doubt.
>>
>> To some extent, although I was quite happy with an early iPad until the
>> battery died. That had a SIM socket in it too, although I never used it.
>> There were also reports that the iOS was not very well integrated with
>> SMS.
>>
>>>> There appears to be a great deal of confusion in this thread between
>>>> "working for unambitious people with trivial amounts of email
>>>> traffic", and "something which can cope with hundreds of emails and
>>>> scores of active folders".
>>
>>>> It's the latter which I have yet to find a mobile solution for.
>>>> Unless of course you count my Windows Laptop with built in GSM modem.
>>>> Hands up everyone who has one of these.
>>>
>>> Why would I lumber myself with something so clumsy when there are much
>>> better solutions available.
>>
>> You've got a phone with a keyboard and 14" screen? I'm impressed.
>>
>> I bought my wife a later model of essentially the same thing recently,
>> but couldn't find one with a SIM socket. Also has a touch screen [hence
>> also a tablet mode] and a detachable keyboard, one plus being a battery
>> in each half adding up to a full day's use. She uses her phone for
>> things that phones are good at (like photos, voice or WhatsApp), and the
>> laptop for things it's not (like writing presentations, and multi-person
>> Teams calls).
>>
>> She's rather gone off email, but still gets quite a lot, which I have to
>> skim through on her desktop. Where she insists on having Outlook (but
>> not Exchange, so no excuse about having the dreadful calendaring
>> available too) thus my dislike comes from over two of decades of pain.
>>
>> Like me she was a fan of Microsoft phones, because the integration
>> between phone and desktop was superb. And her discussions with security
>> professionals (part of our work then was recommending secure IT
>> solutions) confirmed it was also the best in that respect. However, as
>> we know, the market didn't agree, so we've had to give that up.
>
>I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email existence
>on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad. However, an
>iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in, and to compose
>replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my multiple subfolder
>mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access them if I need to. I can
>also see multiple private email accounts. You are not special having heavy
>email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.

I'm glad it works for you, but it doesn't for me. My phone would be
pinging about once a minute.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sotfku$9no$4@dont-email.me>, at 17:50:22 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email
>>existence on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad.
>>However, an iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in,
>>and to compose replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my
>>multiple subfolder mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access
>>them if I need to. I can also see multiple private email accounts.
>>You are not special having heavy email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.
>
>I get the impression what Roland really needs is a decent pair of glasses.

A decent pair of glasses doesn't fix a sub-optimal user interface. And
Can I remind you that my main email screen is approx 100 lines by 120
columns (or if a document, two full pages of A4 at once), and no amount
of visiting the optician is going to get that to fit on a phone.
--
Roland Perry

On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:

>>Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>experience seems to me to be relevant.
>
>But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>phone?

Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
I do need to.

>Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>it.

Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.

Mark

In message <sosn20$qnk$1@dont-email.me>, at 10:50:40 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>>>> As I've posted in several replies today, the issue isn't with IMAP, it's
>>>> with the sorting and storing of thousands of emails on a phone (however
>>>> it was they arrived there).
>>>
>>> But they’re only cached on the phone. Your client doesn’t need to store
>>> thousands of email on the phone.
>>
>> It needs to provide a view of thousands of emails, even if only an
>> extract from the headers. [Re-downloading] the bodies if they aren't
>> cached requires satisfactory connectivity.
>
>So do server-side filtering (or manual filtering at home if you managed to
>buy the ticket before getting out of your car in the rainy-sodden car park)
>to put your e-tickets into a single folder and then access only that folder
>on your phone when you need to display the ticket. That way only the
>ticket folder needs to be cached on the phone.

You are failing to answer the question of why I should go to all that
bother, for just one of a hundred suppliers of e-commerce facilities,
who insists on using 1992 technology to deliver tickets, simply because
they propose to fine me £100 when *their* TVM is broken.

Tell you what, this is how it *should* work:

First of all provide paper tickets for people who want them. Actually,
there are stations on the line where paper tickets from a TVM are *all*
you have, for car parking.

But for travellers, write an app that they can call up just before the
train is due (not least because if the train turns out to have been
cancelled, they might want to make alternative arrangements rather than
wait an hour for the next one). Refund the parking ticket - maybe.

The app knows where they are, and what the traveller's favourite tickets
are. Bring up a pick-list, but obviously with a "something else",
leading to some queries, if they are being adventurous.

Push the ticket to the phone, so that *all* they have to do is present
their NFC to a validator or barrier.

Note the time when they touched out at the other end (the app would have
to be tickling the NFC in anticipation) and twice for the return trip.
At the end of the day, work out what the most appropriate fare would be
(anytime, off-peak, railcard validity etc) and charge that to the
customer's credit card.

Send a simple SMS to the phone to confirm, and an email for archive
purposes.

If you want to put a cherry on the cake, automatically work out any
delay-repay that's due, based on the train they must have been aiming
for when they boarded, and what time the trains actually ran.

There's no new or exciting technology there, just bothering to give the
customer a better experience.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sotdh2$r3g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:14:10 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sosifu$rkt$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:46 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 09/12/2021 07:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soqqhj$pmn$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:37:55 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 08/12/2021 17:30, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
>>>>>>>>>> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>>>>>>>>> they've  worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and
>>>>>>>>>> it's that  layer (not the transport) which has the operational
>>>>>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Get a decent client, there are many around.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject
>>>>>>>> dropped up [Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly
>>>>>>>> rated. But MRD applies I suppose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which one would you suggest instead?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Apple Mail. Buy an iPhone :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have something that just works? Perish the thought.
>>>>> I did have an iPhone for a couple of years (a project I was working
>>>>> on required a full house of Android/Microsoft/Android phones).
>>>>> The iPhone was not just the most expensive by a factor of at least
>>>>> two, but also the one I would least have wanted to carry on using in
>>>>> a personal context.
>>>>
>>>> Because of your antipathy to all things Apple no doubt.
>>>
>>> To some extent, although I was quite happy with an early iPad until the
>>> battery died. That had a SIM socket in it too, although I never used it.
>>> There were also reports that the iOS was not very well integrated with
>>> SMS.
>>>
>>>>> There appears to be a great deal of confusion in this thread between
>>>>> "working for unambitious people with trivial amounts of email
>>>>> traffic", and "something which can cope with hundreds of emails and
>>>>> scores of active folders".
>>>
>>>>> It's the latter which I have yet to find a mobile solution for.
>>>>> Unless of course you count my Windows Laptop with built in GSM modem.
>>>>> Hands up everyone who has one of these.
>>>>
>>>> Why would I lumber myself with something so clumsy when there are much
>>>> better solutions available.
>>>
>>> You've got a phone with a keyboard and 14" screen? I'm impressed.
>>>
>>> I bought my wife a later model of essentially the same thing recently,
>>> but couldn't find one with a SIM socket. Also has a touch screen [hence
>>> also a tablet mode] and a detachable keyboard, one plus being a battery
>>> in each half adding up to a full day's use. She uses her phone for
>>> things that phones are good at (like photos, voice or WhatsApp), and the
>>> laptop for things it's not (like writing presentations, and multi-person
>>> Teams calls).
>>>
>>> She's rather gone off email, but still gets quite a lot, which I have to
>>> skim through on her desktop. Where she insists on having Outlook (but
>>> not Exchange, so no excuse about having the dreadful calendaring
>>> available too) thus my dislike comes from over two of decades of pain.
>>>
>>> Like me she was a fan of Microsoft phones, because the integration
>>> between phone and desktop was superb. And her discussions with security
>>> professionals (part of our work then was recommending secure IT
>>> solutions) confirmed it was also the best in that respect. However, as
>>> we know, the market didn't agree, so we've had to give that up.
>>
>> I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email existence
>> on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad. However, an
>> iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in, and to compose
>> replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my multiple subfolder
>> mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access them if I need to. I can
>> also see multiple private email accounts. You are not special having heavy
>> email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.
>
> I'm glad it works for you, but it doesn't for me. My phone would be
> pinging about once a minute.

I’ve set mine to only download mail on command by me. That means I get mail
when I want to attend to it. Couldn’t be doing with my phone demanding my
attention every time an email turned up.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> remarked:
>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 15:20:51 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <ul44rgh3pooqqimstcdg7bt0tv3npqfi12@4ax.com>, at 14:46:17 on
>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 08:01:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <7jv1rg1f2lkcibd6kvd034ngclblc00730@4ax.com>, at 18:54:35 on
>>>>> Wed, 8 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:59:43 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apple Mail even copes with corporate email. My privately owned phone can
>>>>>>> pick up the corporate mail from an Exchange server, and if they wish they
>>>>>>> can remote wipe the corporate email on my phone without affecting my
>>>>>>> private email boxes.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Apple Mail and Gmail (the default mail app on Android pohones)
>>>>>
>>>>> Doesn't Samsung, which has a very large market share, have something
>>>>> slightly different as the default?
>>>>
>>>> I haven't used it, but it appears to be a custom version of Gmail.
>>>
>>> Gmail is mainly a platform, not an app, although the two do commonly get
>>> conflated.
>>
>> Gmail is both a platform and an app. The app can access both the
>> platform and other email providers.
>>
>>>> I haven't tried it, because I haven't felt the need to.
>>>
>>> I have felt the need to try many such things because I think it's a bit
>>> rich to lecture people on what they should be using, if not from
>>> personal experience.
>>
>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>
> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
> phone?
>
>>>> Gmail (on my phone) and Apple Mail (on my iPad) work fine for me. Both
>>>> of them support all the email accounts that I use. Looking at Spark on
>>>> Google Play, I see that it, too, can connect to Gmail, Exchange and
>>>> IMAP, and can handle multiple email accounts on the same device. It has
>>>> a few features which Gmail and Apple Mail don't have (such as the
>>>> ability to schedule email to be sent in the future), but none of them
>>>> look like the killer feature that would persuade me to switch.
>>>
>>> A killer feature could be along the lines of "how can it show me a
>>> display with a hundred or so waiting emails to pick from, on such a
>>> small screen"?
>>
>> I don't think any mobile app could do that, unless you have exceptional
>> eyesight. The workaround is a good search system.
>
> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
> it.

Says the man who describes his email client as being on a par with a pager.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sotdh2$r3g$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:14:10 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sosifu$rkt$3@dont-email.me>, at 09:32:46 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> On 09/12/2021 07:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>> In message <soqqhj$pmn$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:37:55 on Wed, 8 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 08/12/2021 17:30, Tweed wrote:
>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> In message <sokp25$ii5$4@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:49 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>>>>> 2021,
>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Doesn’t your email do imap?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> IMAP is not a replacement for a mouse and a decent sized screen, so
>>>>>>>>>> that's a rather strange comment to make.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> ps. Yes, the email app I use on my phone does support IMAP, but
>>>>>>>>>> they've  worked hard to make the presentation resemble web-mail, and
>>>>>>>>>> it's that  layer (not the transport) which has the operational
>>>>>>>>>> issues.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Get a decent client, there are many around.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I'm using the one that was recommended last time this subject
>>>>>>>> dropped up [Spark], and the suppliers seem to think it's highly
>>>>>>>> rated. But MRD applies I suppose.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Which one would you suggest instead?
>>>>>
>>>>>>>  Apple Mail. Buy an iPhone :)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Have something that just works? Perish the thought.
>>>>> I did have an iPhone for a couple of years (a project I was working
>>>>> on required a full house of Android/Microsoft/Android phones).
>>>>> The iPhone was not just the most expensive by a factor of at least
>>>>> two, but also the one I would least have wanted to carry on using in
>>>>> a personal context.
>>>>
>>>> Because of your antipathy to all things Apple no doubt.
>>>
>>> To some extent, although I was quite happy with an early iPad until the
>>> battery died. That had a SIM socket in it too, although I never used it.
>>> There were also reports that the iOS was not very well integrated with
>>> SMS.
>>>
>>>>> There appears to be a great deal of confusion in this thread between
>>>>> "working for unambitious people with trivial amounts of email
>>>>> traffic", and "something which can cope with hundreds of emails and
>>>>> scores of active folders".
>>>
>>>>> It's the latter which I have yet to find a mobile solution for.
>>>>> Unless of course you count my Windows Laptop with built in GSM modem.
>>>>> Hands up everyone who has one of these.
>>>>
>>>> Why would I lumber myself with something so clumsy when there are much
>>>> better solutions available.
>>>
>>> You've got a phone with a keyboard and 14" screen? I'm impressed.
>>>
>>> I bought my wife a later model of essentially the same thing recently,
>>> but couldn't find one with a SIM socket. Also has a touch screen [hence
>>> also a tablet mode] and a detachable keyboard, one plus being a battery
>>> in each half adding up to a full day's use. She uses her phone for
>>> things that phones are good at (like photos, voice or WhatsApp), and the
>>> laptop for things it's not (like writing presentations, and multi-person
>>> Teams calls).
>>>
>>> She's rather gone off email, but still gets quite a lot, which I have to
>>> skim through on her desktop. Where she insists on having Outlook (but
>>> not Exchange, so no excuse about having the dreadful calendaring
>>> available too) thus my dislike comes from over two of decades of pain.
>>>
>>> Like me she was a fan of Microsoft phones, because the integration
>>> between phone and desktop was superb. And her discussions with security
>>> professionals (part of our work then was recommending secure IT
>>> solutions) confirmed it was also the best in that respect. However, as
>>> we know, the market didn't agree, so we've had to give that up.
>>
>> I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email existence
>> on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad. However, an
>> iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in, and to compose
>> replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my multiple subfolder
>> mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access them if I need to. I can
>> also see multiple private email accounts. You are not special having heavy
>> email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.
>
> I'm glad it works for you, but it doesn't for me. My phone would be
> pinging about once a minute.

Why have your phone ping when email arrives? Does your desktop do that?
(FWIW my desktop does, my phone and my iPad don’t.)

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>
>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>> multiple accounts.

>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>dozen it gets unmanageable.
>
>You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.

Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
the number of TOCs I might use).
--
Roland Perry

In message <sol7i2$t7q$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:43:14 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sofqsp$8cv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:36:25 on Sat, 4 Dec 2021,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> <martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On 03/12/2021 15:51, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <soddlq$ors$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:38:34 on Fri, 3 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> She finds it much better than having to use the ticket printing
>>>>>>>>>> machine
>>>>>>>>>> at the station.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But doesn't cover the situation I'm describing, which is last-minute
>>>>>>>>> discretionary travel. The most likely discretionary I ticket I might
>>>>>>>>> buy
>>>>>>>>> is £1.90. What a palaver just to avoid a £100 fin
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> What palaver?  Buy the ticket, get the email within seconds, open the
>>>>>>>> PDF
>>>>>>>> attachment if it doesn't happen automatically.  And, no, you don't
>>>>>>>> need an
>>>>>>>> Adobe account to view PDFs.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roland’s world is unaccountably more difficult that everyone else’s.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My most successful projects have involved understanding what the general
>>>>>> public (not IT geeks) find easy or difficult, and as far as possible
>>>>>> pre-navigating them through the maze.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Train ticketing is a black art to most of the public, even without the
>>>>>> added ingredient of e-ticketing where some flows are possible, and
>>>>>> others aren't (and you can't tell which until after you spend quite a
>>>>>> while wrestling, through a keyhole, with a user interface designed by a
>>>>>> Vogon.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm all right Jack at the moment as the TfW website and app are well
>>>>> integrated and I can book tickets on my laptop which are available on my
>>>>> phone in the time I can pick it up to double check.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm minded to create a new email address solely for emailed tickets so
>>>>> they are easily accessible on my mobile. It would be even more useful
>>>>> for airline companies which dont have integrated apps as far as I know.
>>>>>
>>>>> I note that Roland has his own domain so I don't understand why he
>>>>> cannot have an email address uniqually for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Nobody, and that may well include Roland, understands his email setup.
>>>
>>> The thing is, emailed pdf tickets are convenient and work well for very
>>> many people. Roland is moaning because the system isn’t convenient for his
>>> own unique and rather odd setup. He needs to change, because the system
>>> isn’t going to change especially for him.
>>
>> My setup isn't the slightest bit odd, unless you regard the "busy-ness"
>> of my email environment as fundamentally odd.
>
>I have a busy email environment too. However, I can still get important
>emails to my phone without them being obscured by the normal traffic. You
>just seem to be unwilling to adapt/change or even modify your approach.

I've tried, this isn't just an armchair exercise. But can you answer why
I need to jump through such hoops just to avoid train companies fining
me £100 when one of their TVMs is broken?

Would you support every bus company making the same demands?
--
Roland Perry

In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:

>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>might, just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>hundred, it's a bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>this week to expect me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.

>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
>>their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
>>£100 fine.
>
>You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
>the car.

But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sooch2$vjs$4@dont-email.me>, at 19:26:26 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 07/12/2021 19:15, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <son784$mkp$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:10 on Tue, 7 Dec
>>2021, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2021-12-06 18:31:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <sol4a5$4q2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:47:47 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>>2021, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2021-12-06 09:30:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4
>>>>>>Dec 2021, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>>>used yet.
>>>>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>>>>
>>>>>> How well does that work when you are stood in the station car
>>>>>>park, having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the
>>>>>>ticket machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>
>>>>>  I have never encountered an email client that does not, by
>>>>>default, sort by time/date with newest on top.
>>
>>>>  You need to get out more, and also realise that email users
>>>>sometimes  don't use the default settings.
>>>
>>> Right, so we're back to the situation that you have made specific
>>>choices to organise yourself in a way that creates this problem,
>>>because if you did not make these specific, unusual choices, the
>>>problem would not present itself.
>> My email configuration is the one which works best for 99.9% of the
>>emails I receive.
>>
>>> That's your free choice, and perhaps the other benefits of
>>>organising yourself this way make it worthwhile.  The implication of
>>>this is that it is not possible to extrapolate from your sepcific
>>>unsatisfactory user experience to the wider population.  This means
>>>that it is less likely that a large public facing organisation is
>>>going to make choices in how they do business to accommodate your
>>>unique way of doing things, as opposed to going with a solution that
>>>works for everyone else.  The question you have to consider is
>>>whether the drawbacks of organising yourself in a way that creates
>>>these problems provides wider benefits that outweigh these drawbacks.

>> A bit repetitive there, old chap.

>> And no, I'm not going to organise my entire email around the
>>particular requirements demanded by a self-centred once every six
>>month distress-purchase supplier such as Greater Anglia, who I am
>>only using on the smartphone because they can't be bothered to:
>> (a) Keep their ticket machines working adequately and
>> (b) Have a fall back for when they aren't working, other than
>>     fining their customers £100.

>> A masterclass in telling your potential customers that you really
>>wish they drove, instead.
>
>And just how often are the machines not working because they have been
>vandalised yet again? That's presumably also the fault of the railways.

It's hard to tell, but seems unlikely, if for example they are inside a
station building, which just happens to be unmanned that instant because
they can't devise a sensible staff rota.

More to the point, there should be *other* ways to solve the problem,
like PERTIS machines, rather than large hectoring posters on the wall.
--
Roland Perry

In message <mk4lqgdglqpc327o7ukkp49ollpkk0mmln@4ax.com>, at 22:54:32 on
Fri, 3 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com> remarked:

>>In theory if you aren't an invalid, you aren't supposed to use the
>>concessions given to invalid carriages (of which mobility scooters are
>>nowadays one of the most visible incarnations).
>>
>You can be an invalid without being a disabled person.

Can you be an invalid entitled to take advantage of the concessions
available to mobility scooter drivers, but not qualifying as whatever
those rules define as "an invalid"?
--
Roland Perry

In message <soqd4h$rpv$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:49:05 on Wed, 8 Dec 2021,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <son784$mkp$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:50:10 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>> Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>> On 2021-12-06 18:31:59 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>
>>>> In message <sol4a5$4q2$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:47:47 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>>> 2021, Bob <email@domain.com> remarked:
>>>>> On 2021-12-06 09:30:28 +0000, Roland Perry said:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <sog19n$tro$2@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:43 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, nib <news@ingram-bromley.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I just have a folder for e-mails with tickets that haven't been
>>>>>>> used yet.
>>>>>>> Copy e-mails in there when they arrive. Easily found there on phone,
>>>>>>> tablet or computer, even if several days old. Delete when used.
>>>>
>>>>>> How well does that work when you are stood in the station car park,
>>>>>> having bought a ticket a couple of minutes ago because the ticket
>>>>>> machine was broken (or had an impossibly long queue)?
>>
>>>>> I have never encountered an email client that does not, by default,
>>>>> sort by time/date with newest on top.
>>
>>>> You need to get out more, and also realise that email users
>>>> sometimes don't use the default settings.
>>>
>>> Right, so we're back to the situation that you have made specific
>>> choices to organise yourself in a way that creates this problem,
>>> because if you did not make these specific, unusual choices, the
>>> problem would not present itself.
>>
>> My email configuration is the one which works best for 99.9% of the
>> emails I receive.
>
>But clearly not the one that would work for 99.9% of the population have,
>for whom tickets are rather more than 0.1% of the emails they receive.

If they are receiving that few emails, then perhaps they are happy.
Although only getting one or two a day might mean they are a bit rusty
when it comes to configuring the setup for the sole convenience of train
companies.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>> might, just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>> hundred, it's a bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>> this week to expect me to bend over backwards for *their* convenience.
>
>>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
>>> their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
>>> £100 fine.
>>
>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
>> the car.
>
> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.

If you buy your tickets at home/in the car it really doesn’t matter if the
TVM is working or not.