Am 10.12.2021 um 13:14 schrieb Graeme Wall:
> On 10/12/2021 10:05, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 10.12.2021 um 09:40 schrieb Graeme Wall:
>>> On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>>> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such
>>>> as railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have
>>>> multiple ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.
>>>
>>> Why?
>>
>> I have (with the german words for)  "Advertizing", "phone",
>> "shopping",   and one "holidays" (plus "Sports" for the various sports
>> clouds).
>>
>> "Rolf" and "Holidays" are forwarded to the mobile phone, "railways" is
>> not forwarded because DB tickets automatically appear in-app whether I
>> buy the on the ephone or via the web interface.
>> The others have no reason to reach the mobile phone.
>>
>
> But you don't, for example ,have one for Thomas Cook, One for Tui and so
> on under holidays.

Exactly. Or even one for "the owner of the holiday home in Oberstdorf
where I once went skiing" ;-)

In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>
>>>Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>
>>But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>phone?
>
>Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>I do need to.
>
>>Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>it.
>
>Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.

Something less century than PDF, anyway.
--
Roland Perry

In message <soqdtf$1pj$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:02:22 on Wed, 8 Dec 2021,
Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:

>> My point is that "the Basics" should not include being compelled to
>>set up special email accounts and to carry a smartphone, and buy
>>tickets in a rush in the rain stood in the station car park, just to
>>avoid a £100 fine if the TOC can't be bothered to keep their ticket
>>machines working.

....

>Are there any cases of a penalty fare being successfully extracted, or
>even demanded, when there was no way to buy a ticket without carrying a
>smartphone? If not then just buy a paper ticket,

The TVM is broken dear Liza.

>or travel without one if that is impossible.

And risk the fine. There should be some middle course available, or at
least some rather less hectoring signage saying "it's OK, if the
machines are broken we promise you won't be fined".
--
Roland Perry

In message <sotl1m$i0q$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:22:30 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>>> I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email existence
>>> on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad. However, an
>>> iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in, and to compose
>>> replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my multiple subfolder
>>> mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access them if I need to. I can
>>> also see multiple private email accounts. You are not special having heavy
>>> email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.
>>
>> I'm glad it works for you, but it doesn't for me. My phone would be
>> pinging about once a minute.
>
>Why have your phone ping when email arrives?

The app I'm using seems to want to do it. Maybe I could turn it off, but
a couple of minutes with the settings doesn't reveal an obvious lever to
pull.

>Does your desktop do that?

An icon flashes, but there's no audio.

>(FWIW my desktop does, my phone and my iPad don’t.)

--
Roland Perry

In message <sotl1l$i0q$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:22:29 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 15:20:51 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ul44rgh3pooqqimstcdg7bt0tv3npqfi12@4ax.com>, at 14:46:17 on
>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 08:01:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <7jv1rg1f2lkcibd6kvd034ngclblc00730@4ax.com>, at 18:54:35 on
>>>>>> Wed, 8 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:59:43 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apple Mail even copes with corporate email. My privately owned
>>>>>>>>phone can pick up the corporate mail from an Exchange server,
>>>>>>>>and if they wish they can remote wipe the corporate email on my
>>>>>>>>phone without affecting my private email boxes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Apple Mail and Gmail (the default mail app on Android pohones)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Doesn't Samsung, which has a very large market share, have something
>>>>>> slightly different as the default?
>>>>>
>>>>> I haven't used it, but it appears to be a custom version of Gmail.
>>>>
>>>> Gmail is mainly a platform, not an app, although the two do commonly get
>>>> conflated.
>>>
>>> Gmail is both a platform and an app. The app can access both the
>>> platform and other email providers.
>>>
>>>>> I haven't tried it, because I haven't felt the need to.
>>>>
>>>> I have felt the need to try many such things because I think it's a bit
>>>> rich to lecture people on what they should be using, if not from
>>>> personal experience.
>>>
>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>
>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>> phone?
>>
>>>>> Gmail (on my phone) and Apple Mail (on my iPad) work fine for me. Both
>>>>> of them support all the email accounts that I use. Looking at Spark on
>>>>> Google Play, I see that it, too, can connect to Gmail, Exchange and
>>>>> IMAP, and can handle multiple email accounts on the same device. It has
>>>>> a few features which Gmail and Apple Mail don't have (such as the
>>>>> ability to schedule email to be sent in the future), but none of them
>>>>> look like the killer feature that would persuade me to switch.
>>>>
>>>> A killer feature could be along the lines of "how can it show me a
>>>> display with a hundred or so waiting emails to pick from, on such a
>>>> small screen"?
>>>
>>> I don't think any mobile app could do that, unless you have exceptional
>>> eyesight. The workaround is a good search system.
>>
>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>> it.
>
>Says the man who describes his email client as being on a par with a pager.

I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, the email client on one of my
phones is so basic that all it's really doing is being a pager saying
"an email has arrived, but you are really going to have to use a PC to
read/reply".

I have no control over the phone, or the apps I'm allowed to use.

My other (personal) phone would be pinging constantly if all my email
was directed towards it. On a rough estimate I have perhaps 500k in my
email-iverse over the last ten years, so that's 50k a year, 200 per
working day.

On top of all the alerts for other things (Facebook postings in threads
I'm interested in, Tweets from people I follow, etc etc) it would be
wall to wall.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/12/2021 10:07, Rolf Mantel wrote:
> Am 09.12.2021 um 20:19 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <sol7i2$t7q$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:43:14 on Mon, 6 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> I have a busy email environment too. However, I can still get important
>>> emails to my phone without them being obscured by the normal traffic.
>>> You
>>> just seem to be unwilling to adapt/change or even modify your approach.
>>
>> I've tried, this isn't just an armchair exercise. But can you answer
>> why I need to jump through such hoops just to avoid train companies
>> fining me £100 when one of their TVMs is broken?
>
> I have yet to see evidence that train companies fine customers when
> their TVMs are broken.
>

You need to be a registered member to view everything, but if you visit
the RailUK Forum, and go to the sub-forum Disputes & Prosecutions , you
will find over 100 pages of problems. Whilst many examples are from
whingers hoping for help after various ways of evading payment, there
are also plenty of examples of people mistreated by rail officials,
including due to inability to buy the correct ticket from TVMs.

(And also Merseyrail refusing to accept e-tickets)

https://www.railforums.co.uk/

In message <g3p4rg5opgbjm2c2s58qjhprkhhd21p390@4ax.com>, at 20:26:00 on
Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:13:10 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>Tell you what, this is how it *should* work:
>>
>>First of all provide paper tickets for people who want them. Actually,
>>there are stations on the line where paper tickets from a TVM are *all*
>>you have, for car parking.
>>
>>But for travellers, write an app
>
>...that works for every TOC and every ticket retailer, and works on
>every mobile device...

every TOC is a solved problem. Every retailer is a red herring, it's the
one retailer I've chosen to use who is supplying the app. Every mobile
device is a solved problem, if "every" means iPhones and Androids.
Eventually they'll rot away if OS upgrades are not available, and the
ticket seller should be careful to ensure as much backwards
compatibility as reasonably practical.

>>that they can call up just before the
>>train is due (not least because if the train turns out to have been
>>cancelled, they might want to make alternative arrangements rather than
>>wait an hour for the next one). Refund the parking ticket - maybe.
>>
>>The app knows where they are, and what the traveller's favourite tickets
>>are. Bring up a pick-list, but obviously with a "something else",
>>leading to some queries, if they are being adventurous.
>>
>>Push the ticket to the phone, so that *all* they have to do is present
>>their NFC to a validator or barrier.
>>
>>Note the time when they touched out at the other end (the app would have
>>to be tickling the NFC in anticipation) and twice for the return trip.
>>At the end of the day, work out what the most appropriate fare would be
>>(anytime, off-peak, railcard validity etc) and charge that to the
>>customer's credit card.
>
>This is possibly something that Great British Railways might want to
>invest in when it comes into being. It's the sort of thing that a
>unified network can do, as evidenced by TFL's investment in Oyster. In
>the meantime, Network Rail, the TOCs and third party ticket vendors have
>little incentive to cooperate on a common platform and app. And unless
>it is common to all sources of tickets, the ticket sellers won't be able
>to rely on customers having it, so they will still need to provide
>electronic delivery by other means, such as email.

It's nice not being the only defeatist in the room, for a change.

But to start with, a TOC like GTR - which has a substantial network
across the Southeast - could introduce such an App for its own trains,
and maybe even a few others that share its metals.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/12/2021 08:01, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sotnpl$664$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>>> might,  just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>>> hundred, it's a  bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>>> this week to expect  me to bend over backwards for *their*
>>>>> convenience.
>>>
>>>>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
>>>>> their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
>>>>> £100 fine.
>>>>
>>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
>>>> the car.
>>>
>>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>>
>> If you buy your tickets at home/in the car it really doesn’t matter if
>> the
>> TVM is working or not.
>
> Only if the flow actually *has* e-tickets available.
>
> But you've lost track of the reason for this debate: it's the
> circumstances that you arrive at the station to find that the TVM you
> wanted to buy a paper ticket from is broken, and next to it is a big
> hectoring sign all abut £100 fines for travelling without a ticket.
>
> With one of the most common rail tickets I buy being £1.90, it's really
> not proportionate to be ordering them in advance from home.
>
> What would be your reaction when boarding a bus if the driver said
> "sorry, my ticket machine is broken, you must go back home and buy a
> ticket there first". (And of course the next bus isn't until an hour
> later).

Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:
>>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>remarked:
>>
>>>>Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>
>>>But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>phone?
>>
>>Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>I do need to.
>>
>>>Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>it.
>>
>>Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>
>Something less century than PDF, anyway.

PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
nonsense installed.

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:42:26 +0000
Certes <none@nowhere.net> wrote:
>On 10/12/2021 08:01, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <sotnpl$664$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>>>> might,  just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>>>> hundred, it's a  bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>>>> this week to expect  me to bend over backwards for *their*
>>>>>> convenience.
>>>>
>>>>>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they could be
>>>>>> bothered to keep their ticket machines operational, or provide PERTIS
>>>>>> machines, so passengers weren't forced to buy at the last minute using
>>>>>> their mobile, stood in the rain in the station car park, on pain of a
>>>>>> £100 fine.
>>>>>
>>>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I got out of
>>>>> the car.
>>>>
>>>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>>>
>>> If you buy your tickets at home/in the car it really doesn’t matter if
>>> the
>>> TVM is working or not.
>>
>> Only if the flow actually *has* e-tickets available.
>>
>> But you've lost track of the reason for this debate: it's the
>> circumstances that you arrive at the station to find that the TVM you
>> wanted to buy a paper ticket from is broken, and next to it is a big
>> hectoring sign all abut £100 fines for travelling without a ticket.
>>
>> With one of the most common rail tickets I buy being £1.90, it's really
>> not proportionate to be ordering them in advance from home.
>>
>> What would be your reaction when boarding a bus if the driver said
>> "sorry, my ticket machine is broken, you must go back home and buy a
>> ticket there first". (And of course the next bus isn't until an hour
>> later).
>
>Round here, you get a free trip when the bus can't issue a ticket.

Whats the point of bus tickets? You get on , pay your money , sit down. What
do you need a ticket for other than to pick any errant chewing gum off the
seat with first?

In message <sov3pl$lb5$3@dont-email.me>, at 08:40:21 on Fri, 10 Dec
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>> In message <ukp4rg9vb6s0teemqs6966pemgmr9i07ub@4ax.com>, at 20:38:24
>>on Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 19:17:24 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>> 2021,  Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>>
>>>>>>  That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>>
>>> You can have accounts with a dozen different TOCs using the same email
>>> address. So you only need one additional email account. That's better,
>>> surely, than needing a dozen different apps.

>> The different apps are required because they have different features
>>(some of which are locked into the specific operator - although
>>recently I've seen some chinks of interoperability between different
>>Abellio franchises).

>> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such
>>as railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have multiple
>>ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.

So they can see which of those suppliers leaked the address to spammers.

Also, it helps filter emails into folders, although I tend to do that by
using the sender address rather than additional email addresses.

But when I wanted all my delay-repay claims (from three TOCs to begin
with) automatically sorted into one folder, I did create new email
addresses for them. Not least because they send the replies from a
generic address, not one specifically associated with delay-repay
claims.
--
Roland Perry

In message <sov8te$n5e$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:07:43 on Fri, 10 Dec
2021, Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> remarked:
>Am 09.12.2021 um 20:19 schrieb Roland Perry:
>> In message <sol7i2$t7q$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:43:14 on Mon, 6 Dec
>>2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>>> I have a busy email environment too. However, I can still get important
>>> emails to my phone without them being obscured by the normal traffic. You
>>> just seem to be unwilling to adapt/change or even modify your approach.

>> I've tried, this isn't just an armchair exercise. But can you answer
>>why I need to jump through such hoops just to avoid train companies
>>fining me £100 when one of their TVMs is broken?
>
>I have yet to see evidence that train companies fine customers when
>their TVMs are broken.

They threaten to, or at least don't give any comfort to passengers that
it's OK to pay at your destination in such circumstances.
--
Roland Perry

On 10/12/2021 10:05, Rolf Mantel wrote:

> not forwarded because DB tickets automatically appear in-app whether I
> buy the on the ephone or via the web interface.

Unless its a Sunday morning and the entire DB ticketing app system falls
over while you are heading towards Germany from the Czech Republic and
trying to buy a regional ticket for the German leg because the Czechs
couldn't sell you one.

--
Arthur Figgis

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <soqdtf$1pj$1@dont-email.me>, at 14:02:22 on Wed, 8 Dec 2021,
> Certes <none@nowhere.net> remarked:
>
>>> My point is that "the Basics" should not include being compelled to
>>> set up special email accounts and to carry a smartphone, and buy
>>> tickets in a rush in the rain stood in the station car park, just to
>>> avoid a £100 fine if the TOC can't be bothered to keep their ticket
>>> machines working.
>
> ...
>
>> Are there any cases of a penalty fare being successfully extracted, or
>> even demanded, when there was no way to buy a ticket without carrying a
>> smartphone? If not then just buy a paper ticket,
>
> The TVM is broken dear Liza.
>
>> or travel without one if that is impossible.
>
> And risk the fine. There should be some middle course available, or at
> least some rather less hectoring signage saying "it's OK, if the
> machines are broken we promise you won't be fined".

So your contention that the TOC will fine you £100 pounds if you dare to
get on the train when the TVM is broken is based entirely on the wording of
the penalty fare notice? Genuine question, though I think analogous ones
have been asked in other branches of the thread.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sotl1l$i0q$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:22:29 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 15:20:51 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ul44rgh3pooqqimstcdg7bt0tv3npqfi12@4ax.com>, at 14:46:17 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 08:01:59 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <7jv1rg1f2lkcibd6kvd034ngclblc00730@4ax.com>, at 18:54:35 on
>>>>>>> Wed, 8 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 8 Dec 2021 17:59:43 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Apple Mail even copes with corporate email. My privately owned
>>>>>>>>> phone can pick up the corporate mail from an Exchange server,
>>>>>>>>> and if they wish they can remote wipe the corporate email on my
>>>>>>>>> phone without affecting my private email boxes.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Apple Mail and Gmail (the default mail app on Android pohones)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Doesn't Samsung, which has a very large market share, have something
>>>>>>> slightly different as the default?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't used it, but it appears to be a custom version of Gmail.
>>>>>
>>>>> Gmail is mainly a platform, not an app, although the two do commonly get
>>>>> conflated.
>>>>
>>>> Gmail is both a platform and an app. The app can access both the
>>>> platform and other email providers.
>>>>
>>>>>> I haven't tried it, because I haven't felt the need to.
>>>>>
>>>>> I have felt the need to try many such things because I think it's a bit
>>>>> rich to lecture people on what they should be using, if not from
>>>>> personal experience.
>>>>
>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>
>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>> phone?
>>>
>>>>>> Gmail (on my phone) and Apple Mail (on my iPad) work fine for me. Both
>>>>>> of them support all the email accounts that I use. Looking at Spark on
>>>>>> Google Play, I see that it, too, can connect to Gmail, Exchange and
>>>>>> IMAP, and can handle multiple email accounts on the same device. It has
>>>>>> a few features which Gmail and Apple Mail don't have (such as the
>>>>>> ability to schedule email to be sent in the future), but none of them
>>>>>> look like the killer feature that would persuade me to switch.
>>>>>
>>>>> A killer feature could be along the lines of "how can it show me a
>>>>> display with a hundred or so waiting emails to pick from, on such a
>>>>> small screen"?
>>>>
>>>> I don't think any mobile app could do that, unless you have exceptional
>>>> eyesight. The workaround is a good search system.
>>>
>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>> it.
>>
>> Says the man who describes his email client as being on a par with a pager.
>
> I'm not sure what your point is. Yes, the email client on one of my
> phones is so basic that all it's really doing is being a pager saying
> "an email has arrived, but you are really going to have to use a PC to
> read/reply".

It seems more than a little ironic that you’re complaining about other
people using 1992 technology when part of your complaint is that you’re
effectively limited to even older technology.

> I have no control over the phone, or the apps I'm allowed to use.

Well, there’s your trouble.

> My other (personal) phone would be pinging constantly if all my email
> was directed towards it. On a rough estimate I have perhaps 500k in my
> email-iverse over the last ten years, so that's 50k a year, 200 per
> working day.
>
> On top of all the alerts for other things (Facebook postings in threads
> I'm interested in, Tweets from people I follow, etc etc) it would be
> wall to wall.

Then configure the alert settings, for goodness’ sake!

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

<Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>> remarked:
>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>> remarked:
>>>
>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>
>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>> phone?
>>>
>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>> I do need to.
>>>
>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>> it.
>>>
>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>
>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>
> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
> nonsense installed.

Well, until you give in to the entreaties to install Adobe Acrobat Reader
DC or whatever it’s called, which keeps trying to log you into Adobe’s
systems every time it opens. I deleted it. No, I can’t fill in PDF forms
any more. I don’t care.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sotl1m$i0q$2@dont-email.me>, at 19:22:30 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>
>>>> I don’t think anyone is suggesting you conduct your entire email existence
>>>> on a phone. It’s complementary to a computer and/or iPad. However, an
>>>> iPhone is perfectly adequate to see what’s coming in, and to compose
>>>> replies on the move if necessary. I can see all my multiple subfolder
>>>> mailboxes on my Exchange account, and can access them if I need to. I can
>>>> also see multiple private email accounts. You are not special having heavy
>>>> email traffic, mine’s not trivial either.
>>>
>>> I'm glad it works for you, but it doesn't for me. My phone would be
>>> pinging about once a minute.
>>
>> Why have your phone ping when email arrives?
>
> The app I'm using seems to want to do it. Maybe I could turn it off, but
> a couple of minutes with the settings doesn't reveal an obvious lever to
> pull.

Since you seem to be chained to that app by circumstances beyond your
control we can only commiserate with you.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <sovdi3$o21$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:27:00 on Fri, 10 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>You’ll have noticed that I travelled by train through the Ely triangle in
>September. We bought tickets from one of the bank of working TVMs in
>Norwich and the tickets got us all the way to King’s Lynn, changing at Ely.
> Fortunately it wasn’t raining and we weren’t marooned in any car parks,
>though some of the folks we were with wanted to travel on a train that was
>cancelled. I guess we were the execptions that proved the rule.

I'm very glad the TVMs worked for you, and the proof you've completely
lost the plot, which is about the unsatisfactory nature of e-ticketing
when TVMs you expected to use, aren't working.

Or perhaps you do understand that, and are trying to create a
smokescreen?
--
Roland Perry

In message <sovgbk$aos$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:14:44 on Fri, 10 Dec
2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>On 10/12/2021 10:05, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>> Am 10.12.2021 um 09:40 schrieb Graeme Wall:
>>> On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>>>> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such
>>>>as railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have
>>>>multiple ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.
>>>
>>> Why?

>> I have (with the german words for)  "Advertizing", "phone",
>>"shopping",  and one "holidays" (plus "Sports" for the various
>>sports clouds).

>> "Rolf" and "Holidays" are forwarded to the mobile phone, "railways"
>>is not forwarded because DB tickets automatically appear in-app
>>whether I buy the on the ephone or via the web interface.
>> The others have no reason to reach the mobile phone.
>
>But you don't, for example ,have one for Thomas Cook, One for Tui and
>so on under holidays.

So you agree with my proposed strategy above for having one special
email address for all rail ticketing. That was hard work, but we are
getting somewhere.
--
Roland Perry

On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:

>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>remarked:
>>>
>>>>>Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>
>>>>But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>phone?
>>>
>>>Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>I do need to.
>>>
>>>>Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>it.
>>>
>>>Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>
>>Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>
>PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>nonsense installed.

WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.

The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.

Mark

On 10/12/2021 20:16, Roland Perry wrote:
> In message <sovgbk$aos$2@dont-email.me>, at 12:14:44 on Fri, 10 Dec
> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>> On 10/12/2021 10:05, Rolf Mantel wrote:
>>> Am 10.12.2021 um 09:40 schrieb Graeme Wall:
>>>> On 10/12/2021 07:34, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>
>>>>> It's possible, I suppose, to have one additional email address such
>>>>> as railticketing@perry.uk, but traditionally people who have
>>>>> multiple  ecommerce addresses tend to have one per supplier.
>>>>
>>>> Why?
>
>>>  I have (with the german words for)  "Advertizing", "phone",
>>> "shopping",    and one "holidays" (plus "Sports" for the various
>>> sports clouds).
>
>>>  "Rolf" and "Holidays" are forwarded to the mobile phone, "railways"
>>> is  not forwarded because DB tickets automatically appear in-app
>>> whether I  buy the on the ephone or via the web interface.
>>> The others have no reason to reach the mobile phone.
>>
>> But you don't, for example ,have one for Thomas Cook, One for Tui and
>> so on under holidays.
>
> So you agree with my proposed strategy above for having one special
> email address for all rail ticketing. That was hard work, but we are
> getting somewhere.

That was my suggestion in the first place, glad you have finally seen
the sense in it.

--
Graeme Wall
This account not read.

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sovdi3$o21$1@dont-email.me>, at 11:27:00 on Fri, 10 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>
>> You’ll have noticed that I travelled by train through the Ely triangle in
>> September. We bought tickets from one of the bank of working TVMs in
>> Norwich and the tickets got us all the way to King’s Lynn, changing at Ely.
>> Fortunately it wasn’t raining and we weren’t marooned in any car parks,
>> though some of the folks we were with wanted to travel on a train that was
>> cancelled. I guess we were the execptions that proved the rule.
>
> I'm very glad the TVMs worked for you, and the proof you've completely
> lost the plot, which is about the unsatisfactory nature of e-ticketing
> when TVMs you expected to use, aren't working.
>
> Or perhaps you do understand that, and are trying to create a
> smokescreen?

No, I was riffing on the fanciful idea (which you’ve snipped) that there
might be an Ely triangle where modern technology fails to operate
correctly.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>remarked:
>>>
>>>>>Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>
>>>>But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>phone?
>>>
>>>Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>I do need to.
>>>
>>>>Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>it.
>>>
>>>Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>
>>Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>
>PDFs work everywhere.

Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
with your Facebook password". No thanks.

>Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.

I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.

But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
unsuitable.

What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.

[1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp01g1$1nah$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 17:07:13 on Fri, 10 Dec
> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>> from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>> experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>
>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>> phone?
>>>>
>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>> read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>> until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>> I do need to.
>>>>
>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>> when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>> train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>> it.
>>>>
>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>> offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>
>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>
>> PDFs work everywhere.
>
> Sadly not, you need a PDF viewer installed, and often the one shoving
> itself to the head of the queue is Adobe, and they demand you "sign in
> with your Facebook password". No thanks.
>
>> Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media nonsense installed.
>
> I think you'll find almost everyone with a smartphone, does.
>
> But I'm not advocating that rail e-tickets are sent via WhatsApp,
> because its closed-user-group architecture[1] makes it fundamentally
> unsuitable.
>
> What they need to embrace is one of the "wallet" push-technologies that
> some, but not yet a critical mass of, other ticket vendors use.
>
> [1] Making it a killer-app for many less technically able users.

Are you Android users saying that the supplied web browser doesn’t support
viewing pdfs?

In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08 on
Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
remarked:
>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>
>>On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at 19:09:15 on
>>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>remarked:
>>>>On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at 15:38:03 on
>>>>>Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple email accounts
>>>>>>from different sources, several of which are high volume), so my
>>>>>>experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>
>>>>>But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>phone?
>>>>
>>>>Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely need to
>>>>read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most of them can wait
>>>>until I get back. But I don't have any real difficulty reading them when
>>>>I do need to.
>>>>
>>>>>Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a compromise
>>>>>when the train company is insisting on using 1992 technology to deliver
>>>>>train tickets, when there are numerous far better more modern ways to do
>>>>>it.
>>>>
>>>>Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan of having
>>>>to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe TOCs could
>>>>offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>
>>>Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>
>>PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>nonsense installed.
>
>WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.

Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer bond
stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
credential that they relate to you.

>The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.

But the closed-user-group architecture makes it somewhat unsuitable for
receiving tickets from random vendors, rather than family/friends who
are forwarding one they bought for you.
--
Roland Perry