On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:22:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <3bkorg1p1tmtcb4ct09pqq5u9trsbmljha@4ax.com>, at 09:04:41 on
>Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>remarked:
>>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 23:07:22 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk
>>wrote:
>>
>>>On 16/12/2021 21:14, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> But the closed-user-group architecture makes it somewhat unsuitable for
>>>>> receiving tickets from random vendors, rather than family/friends who
>>>>> are forwarding one they bought for you.
>>>>
>>>> It would seem that it is less-used from communication from businesses
>>>> (currently one in my WhatsApp, rather than many in SMS), but I don't see
>>>> why (unless there's 'better' protection against messages from 'unknown'
>>>> numbers).
>>>>
>>>
>>>What I object to is SMSs from companies who wont use that mode for
>>>normal communication.
>>
>>If you mean sending an SMS from a number that you can't reply to, that's
>>a feature of the way the system is designed rather than necessarily a
>>choice of the sender. It stems from the fact that SMS was, originally,
>>inteded as a means for the network to communicate with subscribers, not
>>a user-to-user communication system. That facility was later bolted on,
>>but has never really sat well with the architecture. A proper
>>user-to-user instant messaging system had to wait until the advent of
>>integrated PDA phones.
>
>Not true. Orange offered it on their mars-bar phone from day one.

That's an early example of what I referred to as PDA phones. That is,
phones which had their own independent processing facility, rather than
being merely thin clients of the network.

Mark

Rolf Mantel <news@hartig-mantel.de> wrote:
> Am 17.12.2021 um 13:17 schrieb Anna Noyd-Dryver:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spga79$jr5$2@dont-email.me>, at 21:14:17 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sp1v69$r5q$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 10:40:09 on Sat, 11 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 19:51:38 -0000 (UTC)
>>>>>> Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> <Muttley@dastardlyhq.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Well, until you give in to the entreaties to install Adobe Acrobat
>>>>>>> Reader DC or whatever it’s called, which keeps trying to log
>>>>>>> you into Adobe’s systems every time it opens. I deleted it.
>>>>>>> No, I can’t fill in PDF forms any more. I don’t care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And I'm not interested in installing some Billy No Mates data
>>>>>> trawling garbage from facebook.
>>>>>
>>>>> In which case you'll be blissfully ignorant (now there's a first, NOT)
>>>>> that the people you communicate with on WhatsApp are *only* your mates.
>>>>>
>>>>> That's what makes it such a useful app (no outsiders, spammers etc).
>>>>
>>>> That must be a change made since 2018.
>>>
>>> It's always been the case, I think. You have to be invited into a closed
>>> user group by what would in more formal circumstances be called a
>>> moderator.
>>
>> I have WhatsApp messages in 2018 from a company I don't have in my
>> contacts.
>
> Individual Whatsapp messages but not whatsapp groups.
>
>

I've just had a quick look at a WhatsApp group I'm an admin of, and I can
add people who are in my contacts. Nothing so say I have to be in their
contacts, ie I could add some random number to my contacts and then add
them to a group.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>
>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>
>>>> I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>>>> the rest of us.
>>>
>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>
>> I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>> unnecessary
>
> And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
> such tickets).

AFAICT you’ve asserted that very few people buy tickets electronically but
without offering any evidence. Others have pointed out other contexts
where they successfully buy superficially similar products. If you have
any evidence that very few people buy rail tickets and have them delivered
by email it would help your case.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>
>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>
>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>
>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>
>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>
>>
>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear to cope fine
>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>
> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first place, or
> if they do, have so little other email traffic that the other couple of
> hundred emails a day which serious email users receive, don't swamp
> them.

Evidence, please.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:08:24 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> WhatsApp has an API, which can be used to send a message to any number
>>> registered with WhatsApp even if it isn't already known to you. So it
>>> can be integrated into an online retail environment in a way which
>>> allows a customer to supply their phone number and the system to then
>>> send a message via WhatsApp to that number. From a business perspective,
>>> this is a very useful means of communicating with customers as sending a
>>> WhatsApp message is free, unlike SMS. Plus, of course, you can send
>>> attachments, which you can't easily do with SMS. Abd unlike email and
>>> SMS, WhatsApp has a delivery feedback mechanism built in so you know if
>>> your message has reached the recipient.
>>>
>>> The downside, at the moment, is that access to the API is strictly
>>> controlled (which it has to be, in order to prevent spammers using it),
>>> and there are several hoops to jump through in order to get a Business
>>> WhatsApp Account and be eligible for the API. So there are not, yet,
>>> many organisations using it. But, in the long run, I expect it to become
>>> one of the primary means whereby businesses communicate with customers.
>>
>> The real problem is tying your retail delivery system into a third party
>> owned proprietary system, owned by an outfit with ever diminishing public
>> and political trust.
>
> The point is that if you are selling a product which can be delivered
> digitally, then it makes sense, from a customer service perspective, to
> offer multiple means of delivery. Even assuming that the primary means
> remains email (which is likely, at least for the foreseeable future), it
> would be a useful add-on for ticket vendors to be able to have an extra,
> optional field on the order page which says something like "Enter your
> phone number here to get the ticket sent to you via WhatsApp". That
> doesn't override, or replace, the email delivery mechanism, but it would
> be useful for a large number of customers. If WhatsApp ever goes out of
> fashion, or is supplanted by a different IM system, then alternatives
> which offer a similar API facility could be implemented instead of, or
> even alongside, WhatsApp.
>
>

Enter your ICQ number here.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 19:40:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:23:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 20:22:08 +0000
>>>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>>>>>>>> used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>>>>>>>> supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>>>>>>>> it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Can you use it without setting up an account and giving a load of personal
>>>>>>> info? No.
>>>>>>> Can you use it on a PC without the phone app? No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given that the answer to both questions is, in fact, "Yes", the only
>>>>>> question to which the answer is actually "No" is whether you actually
>>>>>> bothered to think about it before posting that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Feck that.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You are, of course, entitled to remain ignorant. But don't expect the
>>>>>> res of us to care.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://vpnoverview.com/privacy/social-media/what-does-whatsapp-know-about-me/
>>>>>
>>>>> Contacts
>>>>>
>>>>> WhatsApp also collects information you might have about your friends and
>>>>> other contacts through the app. While you can choose to add contacts one at
>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>
>>>> In other words, you don't *have* to share anything unless you want to.
>>>>
>>>
>>> But how many people installing WA actually know that? And how many people
>>> on the signer-up-era’s phone contact list know that their details are going
>>> to be shared with Facebook?
>>
>> That's not the question the PP asked. His phone number is probably
>> already in the contacts list of someone with WhatsApp who has chared it
>> with the system anway. His question was whether you can sign up to
>> WhatsApp without giving away personal data about yourself. To which the
>> answer is an unambiguous "yes". Signing up on the mobile app requires no
>> real life information other than the phone number, which can be a burner
>> if you want. Everything else you share with it is entirely optional.
>>
>
> The practical reality is different though, and WA has been deliberately
> designed that way.
>

It'd be difficult to design a messaging system which can be a seamless
replacement for SMS *without* access to contacts, surely.

It's several years since I set up WhatsApp on a new device but AFAICR it
wanted phone number (clearly required if you want people to be able to
contact you by phone number!) and that's about it. That may have changed
since, of course. It only has my phonebook contacts available to send
messages to, not Facebook friends or Instagram people.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

> So I went home and booked on the GA website. £2.80 no off-peak variant.
>
> Four delivery options available:
>

> "Your tickets have been emailed..." says the website. Hooray!
>

> And, and, and: it's now TWO HOURS LATER, and they PDF hasn't arrived. I
> retract the "Hooray!".
>
>

[Snip (mostly) tale of woe]

For the purposes of this thread, I've just made a trial purchase, using the
GA iPhone app, of a £2.20 for off-peak day return with 16-25 railcard
(which I don't possess!) Soham-Ely next Tuesday. No I won't be using it!

I'll admit to slightly dismayed that Apple Pay wasn't an option, nor was
there a 'scan your card' option. Still, PayPal saved me much typing of
digits.

Ticket receipt email arrived instantly. Ticket available in app instantly.
Ticket email followed a few seconds later, though sorted automatically to
"Other Inbox" rather than "Focused Inbox" by Outlook. The ticket is very
much a PDF attachment to the email, rather than a link to download it.
Ticket present in the 'walllet' part of the app.

No I'm not prepared to repeat the process until it fails, in order to
determine the failure rate!!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:35:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> In message <YdCBU$H1TxthFAU1@perry.uk>, at 09:40:05 on Mon, 13 Dec 2021,
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>> In message <7f3ergtts9j70fqljakpdk7uah1aibnfjb@4ax.com>, at 09:15:46 on
>>> Mon, 13 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>> On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 17:24:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> In message <ivrvIRDWiyshFAJe@perry.uk>, at 10:14:46 on Fri, 10 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>> <<All snipped>>
>>>>
>>>> Leaning aside the lamentable story of the Soham ticketing all I can
>>>> say is that my expereince has been different. The tickets WERE pushed,
>>>> with no action taken by me. Unless: I thought I'd bought one of the
>>>> tickets on the web site but I suppose it's possible that I used the
>>>> app for both. When bought through the app they're definitely pushed.
>>>> It's still progress as I was unable to use the app to buy tickets at
>>>> all until I performed a factory reset on my phone. The station
>>>> selector fields were totally unresponsive.
>>>
>>> More to follow; but I bought my ticket back to Soham on the app, and
>>> once again it didn't get pushed. Instead they emailed me a PDF (that's
>>> one better than yesterday) which then required me retrieving the email
>>> and launching a viewer.
>>
>> Here's the order confirmation:
>>
>> Great news, your train tickets are now ready! You will find them
>> attached to this email.
>>
>> Simply show[**] the attached e-tickets on your mobile phone, or print
>> the tickets out.
>>
>> Journey 1: ELY to SOHAM
>>
>> Please use Adobe Acrobat to open and print these tickets. If you do
>> not have Adobe Acrobat, you must download it by clicking here.
>>
>
> Obviously you don't have to take the bit about Adobe Acrobat seriously.
> *Any* PFF reader will do, and most Android
> phones will have several installed already.
>

To side with Roland for a moment, will that be obvious to a first-time
user? By which I mean, either someone who's just switched from iOS to
Android, or someone who usually does this on desktop not mobile, and is
doing it for the first time 'in the field' so to speak?

Though, of course, that's a feature of the phone operating system rather
than the ticket vendor and applies to any emailed PDF!

>> While trying to book and download the tickets, it was obvious that the
>> station wifi wasn't working, nor was I able to get any 4G data (O2).
>> However, at that time of the morning there are plenty of trains calling,
>> so I was able to log into a selection GA and GN and Stansted Express
>> (not sure why that's separately branded) on-train wifi for long enough
>> to get things done.
>>
>> Opening the ticket in gmail revealed that it wasn't so much an
>> attachment as a link to download a pdf, and with patchy connectivity
>> that didn't work.
>
> Perhaps there's an option to determine whether or not attachments should
> be automatically downloaded by default, or only
> on request?
>
>

Mine was definitely attached to the email, so I suspect it's an artefact of
the email software.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>
> It's not an equivalent situation, because very very few trains have
> someone at the door whose job it is to turn away people without tickets.
>
> When was the last time you encountered one? [OK, it used to happen on
> E*]
>

I don't recall it happening on Eurostar, because your ticket is checked on
entry to security. If it is checked at the carriage door that's surely to
aid smoother boarding, similar to cabin crew 'this aisle, 20 rows back on
the right'?

Checking tickets on the door happens, or used to, on certain notorious
'last' trains in the gWr area (eg Bristol-Weston); one door open and
tickets checked. Also the first Swansea-Cardiff, though that's mostly to
discourage the clubbers from bringing fast food on board what later in the
journey becomes a peak-hour commuter train. Both those depend hugely on who
the crew are on any particular day, though.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>

>
> The usability issue is why the train company is not sending the tickets
> I've been buying [for their trains, between their stations] to its own
> app's wallet. (I note no-one is prepared to address this fundamental
> issue, perhaps because they know they have no answer).
>
>

I tried it, and the ticket was delivered seamlessly to the app.

Perhaps you should contact GA directly, quoting your transaction reference
number, to determine why your transaction failed.

I feel that would allow a more successful resolution than asking on Usenet.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 10:35:15 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <YdCBU$H1TxthFAU1@perry.uk>, at 09:40:05 on Mon, 13 Dec 2021,
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> In message <7f3ergtts9j70fqljakpdk7uah1aibnfjb@4ax.com>, at 09:15:46 on
>>>> Mon, 13 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Sun, 12 Dec 2021 17:24:29 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> In message <ivrvIRDWiyshFAJe@perry.uk>, at 10:14:46 on Fri, 10 Dec 2021,
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>> <<All snipped>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Leaning aside the lamentable story of the Soham ticketing all I can
>>>>> say is that my expereince has been different. The tickets WERE pushed,
>>>>> with no action taken by me. Unless: I thought I'd bought one of the
>>>>> tickets on the web site but I suppose it's possible that I used the
>>>>> app for both. When bought through the app they're definitely pushed.
>>>>> It's still progress as I was unable to use the app to buy tickets at
>>>>> all until I performed a factory reset on my phone. The station
>>>>> selector fields were totally unresponsive.
>>>>
>>>> More to follow; but I bought my ticket back to Soham on the app, and
>>>> once again it didn't get pushed. Instead they emailed me a PDF (that's
>>>> one better than yesterday) which then required me retrieving the email
>>>> and launching a viewer.
>>>
>>> Here's the order confirmation:
>>>
>>> Great news, your train tickets are now ready! You will find them
>>> attached to this email.
>>>
>>> Simply show[**] the attached e-tickets on your mobile phone, or print
>>> the tickets out.
>>>
>>> Journey 1: ELY to SOHAM
>>>
>>> Please use Adobe Acrobat to open and print these tickets. If you do
>>> not have Adobe Acrobat, you must download it by clicking here.
>>>
>>
>> Obviously you don't have to take the bit about Adobe Acrobat seriously.
>> *Any* PFF reader will do, and most Android
>> phones will have several installed already.
>>
>
> To side with Roland for a moment, will that be obvious to a first-time
> user? By which I mean, either someone who's just switched from iOS to
> Android, or someone who usually does this on desktop not mobile, and is
> doing it for the first time 'in the field' so to speak?

I'm not sure what PDF viewers are installed by default on Android, but most
Android phones seem to have several. But, generally speaking, even novice
Android users, Roland excepted, don't find it difficult to install
[another] one if needed.

Android is like Windows: it's an open system, with users able to choose
almost all their software and default options. So you have lots more
choices and more customisation options than on Apple, but also need to set
things up for yourself. The young Roland would have revelled in it, but in
his dotage, Roland now apparently needs the Apple handholding he can't
afford.

>
> Though, of course, that's a feature of the phone operating system rather
> than the ticket vendor and applies to any emailed PDF!
>
>>> While trying to book and download the tickets, it was obvious that the
>>> station wifi wasn't working, nor was I able to get any 4G data (O2).
>>> However, at that time of the morning there are plenty of trains calling,
>>> so I was able to log into a selection GA and GN and Stansted Express
>>> (not sure why that's separately branded) on-train wifi for long enough
>>> to get things done.
>>>
>>> Opening the ticket in gmail revealed that it wasn't so much an
>>> attachment as a link to download a pdf, and with patchy connectivity
>>> that didn't work.
>>
>> Perhaps there's an option to determine whether or not attachments should
>> be automatically downloaded by default, or only
>> on request?
>>
>>
>
> Mine was definitely attached to the email, so I suspect it's an artefact of
> the email software.
>

It's an option in some email client apps (along with whether images should
be downloaded by default or on demand). Some only download subjects by
default, with the rest of the content only downloaded if the user clicks on
it. It's all about minimizing bandwidth.

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:
> On 13/12/2021 16:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>>
>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app, could
>> be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket wallet.
>> Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>
> TfW can and do.
>

GA can and do. There appears to have been an unfortunate glitch with
Roland's purchase.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp89f2$kgh$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:12:18 on Mon, 13 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>
>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>
>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>
>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>
> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.

And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
difficult. Hmm.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp899l$j07$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Mon, 13 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>
>
>> So at this point I can’t see how it is any harder to use than the TVM,
>> and you could do it from the car in the station car park.
>
> Buying a ticket from the TVM is about four presses. Because my
> destination will be one of the short-list of favourites, and all that's
> required then is picking the ticket type, plus two more presses for
> myself if using a railcard. Then contactless payment. By comparison the
> apps are much more fiddly.
>

The GA app keeps your previous ticket type selection, including railcard.
It has nearest and recent stations available at a single tap when selecting
origin and destination.

Paying by a previously-used and stored card is presumably trivial; paying
by PayPal is as easy or simple as your personal security preferences make
it.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp85t1$l1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:11:29 on Mon, 13 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>
>>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app,
>>> could be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket
>>> wallet. Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>>
>> TfW can and do.
>
> Please let me know if they offer it for an Ely-LST ticket, which GA
> claimed was only available TOD.
>
> Or I suppose it could do it myself... oh look, another app that's rotted
> away behind my back, and the new one gets 1.5*
>
> And even more joy: "We're sorry but your account won't work with our new
> ticketing system if you created it before 7 December 2021. Please
> register a new account to buy tickets."
>
> Don't say I didn't try, but back to you, then.

You were well aware of the new TfW app because there was a thread here
about it, less than two weeks ago. *You* started that thread, so don't
claim to have been taken by surprise by it, ten days later.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 19:40:51 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 13:23:57 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> On Sat, 11 Dec 2021 10:41:50 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 20:22:08 +0000
>>>>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC), Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar social media
>>>>>>>>>> nonsense installed.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> The point about WhatsApp is that it's probably the second most widely
>>>>>>>>> used instant messaging system, after SMS. But, unlike SMS, it natively
>>>>>>>>> supports images and file transmission as well as simple text. As such,
>>>>>>>>> it would make a very good delivery mechanism for a PDF e-ticket.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Can you use it without setting up an account and giving a load of personal
>>>>>>>> info? No.
>>>>>>>> Can you use it on a PC without the phone app? No.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given that the answer to both questions is, in fact, "Yes", the only
>>>>>>> question to which the answer is actually "No" is whether you actually
>>>>>>> bothered to think about it before posting that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Feck that.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> You are, of course, entitled to remain ignorant. But don't expect the
>>>>>>> res of us to care.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Mark
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://vpnoverview.com/privacy/social-media/what-does-whatsapp-know-about-me/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Contacts
>>>>>>
>>>>>> WhatsApp also collects information you might have about your friends and
>>>>>> other contacts through the app. While you can choose to add contacts one at
>>>>> ^^^^^^^^^^
>>>>>
>>>>> In other words, you don't *have* to share anything unless you want to.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> But how many people installing WA actually know that? And how many people
>>>> on the signer-up-era’s phone contact list know that their details are going
>>>> to be shared with Facebook?
>>>
>>> That's not the question the PP asked. His phone number is probably
>>> already in the contacts list of someone with WhatsApp who has chared it
>>> with the system anway. His question was whether you can sign up to
>>> WhatsApp without giving away personal data about yourself. To which the
>>> answer is an unambiguous "yes". Signing up on the mobile app requires no
>>> real life information other than the phone number, which can be a burner
>>> if you want. Everything else you share with it is entirely optional.
>>>
>>
>> The practical reality is different though, and WA has been deliberately
>> designed that way.
>>
>
> It'd be difficult to design a messaging system which can be a seamless
> replacement for SMS *without* access to contacts, surely.
>
> It's several years since I set up WhatsApp on a new device but AFAICR it
> wanted phone number (clearly required if you want people to be able to
> contact you by phone number!) and that's about it. That may have changed
> since, of course. It only has my phonebook contacts available to send
> messages to, not Facebook friends or Instagram people.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>
>

You can design a messaging system to have access to your contacts without
those contacts being delivered to a central database. Vodafone deliver SMS
messages to me without knowing who are in my contacts.

I did a data request on WA to see what information they hold on me. They
hold all my contacts numbers but not their names. But this soon allows
Facebook to match who knows who. Presumably this is very helpful to the
security services and is why it’s not been stamped down upon.

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <sp89f2$kgh$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:12:18 on Mon, 13 Dec
>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>>>>
>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>
>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>
>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>
>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>
> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
> difficult. Hmm.
>
>
> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>

I’m amazed that Roland has the capacity to deal with this alleged tidal
wave of emails, given the amount of time he devotes to this group.

The simple fact is, that given the speed of delivery of the emailed ticket,
no matter how many emails you get in a day, the ticket email is going to be
near the top of your inbox chronologically.

Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp89f2$kgh$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:12:18 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> However you ordered them, don't you present them at the venue on your
>>>>>> phone? Just about everyone else does.
>>>>>
>>>>> Because the tickets have arrived on my PC, not on my phone.
>>>>
>>>> They can arrive on both you know…..
>>>
>>> Groundhog day! Yes in theory they can, but I have too many emails
>>> arriving at my desktop to be manageable on a phone.
>>
>> And yet you've declined every suggested solution, including having an
>> entirely separate account just for accessing from your phone, as being too
>> difficult. Hmm.
>>
>>
>> Anna Noyd-Dryver
>>
>
> I’m amazed that Roland has the capacity to deal with this alleged tidal
> wave of emails, given the amount of time he devotes to this group.

Yes, it's very impressive, isn't it?

>
> The simple fact is, that given the speed of delivery of the emailed ticket,
> no matter how many emails you get in a day, the ticket email is going to be
> near the top of your inbox chronologically.

Perhaps Roland's inbox is sorted in some unique-to-him way?

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 09:04:41 +0000, Mark Goodge
<usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 23:07:22 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk
>wrote:
>
>>On 16/12/2021 21:14, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> But the closed-user-group architecture makes it somewhat unsuitable for
>>>> receiving tickets from random vendors, rather than family/friends who
>>>> are forwarding one they bought for you.
>>>
>>> It would seem that it is less-used from communication from businesses
>>> (currently one in my WhatsApp, rather than many in SMS), but I don't see
>>> why (unless there's 'better' protection against messages from 'unknown'
>>> numbers).
>>>
>>
>>What I object to is SMSs from companies who wont use that mode for
>>normal communication.
>
>If you mean sending an SMS from a number that you can't reply to, that's
>a feature of the way the system is designed rather than necessarily a
>choice of the sender. It stems from the fact that SMS was, originally,
>inteded as a means for the network to communicate with subscribers, not
>a user-to-user communication system. That facility was later bolted on,
>but has never really sat well with the architecture. A proper
>user-to-user instant messaging system had to wait until the advent of
>integrated PDA phones.
>
>Mark

No, the Short Message Service was always a two-way thing, defined by
ETSI GSM 3.4o. The full name of the service was Short Message Service
Point to Point but the standards always (from the time of my
involvement) had a reply PDU.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 14:45:57 +0000, Mark Goodge
<usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:

>On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:22:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <3bkorg1p1tmtcb4ct09pqq5u9trsbmljha@4ax.com>, at 09:04:41 on
>>Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>remarked:
>>>On Thu, 16 Dec 2021 23:07:22 +0000, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>>On 16/12/2021 21:14, Anna Noyd-Dryver wrote:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> But the closed-user-group architecture makes it somewhat unsuitable for
>>>>>> receiving tickets from random vendors, rather than family/friends who
>>>>>> are forwarding one they bought for you.
>>>>>
>>>>> It would seem that it is less-used from communication from businesses
>>>>> (currently one in my WhatsApp, rather than many in SMS), but I don't see
>>>>> why (unless there's 'better' protection against messages from 'unknown'
>>>>> numbers).
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>What I object to is SMSs from companies who wont use that mode for
>>>>normal communication.
>>>
>>>If you mean sending an SMS from a number that you can't reply to, that's
>>>a feature of the way the system is designed rather than necessarily a
>>>choice of the sender. It stems from the fact that SMS was, originally,
>>>inteded as a means for the network to communicate with subscribers, not
>>>a user-to-user communication system. That facility was later bolted on,
>>>but has never really sat well with the architecture. A proper
>>>user-to-user instant messaging system had to wait until the advent of
>>>integrated PDA phones.
>>
>>Not true. Orange offered it on their mars-bar phone from day one.
>
>That's an early example of what I referred to as PDA phones. That is,
>phones which had their own independent processing facility, rather than
>being merely thin clients of the network.
>
>Mark

SMS is a feature of GSM and was there from very early days, but GSM
didnh't arrive until to '90s. I won't coment on first-generation
analogue networks on the grounds that I know f-all about them.
The Orange Nokia was part of a subset of GSM phones that implemented
the PCN (Personal Communications Network) standards. From memory the
main features of a PCN handset was support of 1800 MHz, as opposed to
the early GSM standard of 900 MHz, and a message waiting icon on the
handset plus support for specific short messages to manipulate it.

On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:30:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>
>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>
>>>> I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>>>> the rest of us.
>>>
>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>
>>I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>>unnecessary
>
>And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
>such tickets).

Wne I've been on long-distance train journeys over the last five years
it's seemed to me that just about everyone under 40 proffers their
phone to the gripper. So I don't think 'very few' stands.

In message <spj9nl$nop$6@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:21 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>> The usability issue is why the train company is not sending the tickets
>> I've been buying [for their trains, between their stations] to its own
>> app's wallet. (I note no-one is prepared to address this fundamental
>> issue, perhaps because they know they have no answer).
>
>I tried it, and the ticket was delivered seamlessly to the app.
>
>Perhaps you should contact GA directly, quoting your transaction reference
>number, to determine why your transaction failed.
>
>I feel that would allow a more successful resolution than asking on Usenet.

Perhaps you missed the part where I said I *had* contacted them.

Tick Tock, they are now five [*working* - I didn't notice that the first
time] days into the 10 days they claim to answer 90% of enquiries. Feels
like much longer.

And of course, they are sending replies to the ticketing email address
on my mobile phone, which I don't usually look at unless I'm expecting a
ticket that I just bought to be delivered. But I did check again just
now.

Depending on how they define working days over the Xmas period, and
whether I'm in the 90% or 10%, and whether they have suspended the
target "because of Covid"... if they haven't replied by Xmas Eve, it
could well be kicked into the long grass of early January.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <57vergdjvd1mpct2pab9o4rtf4tb18b9ck@4ax.com>, at 17:15:16 on
> Mon, 13 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> remarked:
>> On Mon, 13 Dec 2021 15:29:12 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <sp0b4a$ro1$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:51:38 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>
>>>>> I have no control over the phone, or the apps I'm allowed to use.
>>>>
>>>> Well, there’s your trouble.
>>>
>>> We are where we are. And I won't be the only passenger in the same
>>> circumstances.
>>
>> No, but it does put you in a small minority of the travelling public.
>> The TOCs and ticket vendors, not unreasonably, tend to design their
>> systems for the average traveller.
>
> On one hand you are absolutely right - a significant majority of rail
> journeys are undertaken by holders of season tickets and various
> metro-area PAYG/Concessionary cards (of which Oyster and London Freedom
> Pass are the best known) or metro area CCC PAYG. And last week I did a
> trip on the Docklands light railway using a CCC (a whole £1.70, not a
> ticket I'd have willingly bought in advance or wanted to faff about with
> as a PDF).
>
> On the other hand, taking all those trips out of the equation I doubt
> that my walk-up ticketing requirements are the slightest bit unusual.
> Indeed, I'm sure my use of e|m-ticketing for such things (where
> available) is significantly ahead of the curve.
>
> I have never, ever, seen anyone use the ITSO validators at my local
> stations, for example.
>
>>>>> On top of all the alerts for other things (Facebook postings in threads
>>>>> I'm interested in, Tweets from people I follow, etc etc) it would be
>>>>> wall to wall.
>>>>
>>>> Then configure the alert settings, for goodness’ sake!
>>>
>>> The alerts arise from swamping the phone with superfluous emails. I'm
>>> not aware of a way that Android allows the user to fine-tune alerts by
>>> filtering the stuff inside apps. Rather than saying "this app has
>>> received this one of many things, you are now alerted".
>>>
>>> Are you suggesting that I can set something in Android that only alerts
>>> me to emails arriving in gmail, that are from a specific shortlist of
>>> senders?
>>
>> That would be app-specific, obviously. The Gmail app doesn't allow that
>> level of granularity, but does allow notifications to be toggled
>> independently for different accounts. So, for example, you could have
>> allmytickets@gmail with notifications switched on, and othermail@gmail
>> with notifications switched off.
>
> So that's back to externalising the burden of filtering to the user
>

I'd suggest that very few normal users require "the burden of filtering".
It's a burden you've imposed on yourself, perhaps by insufficient
separation of work and personal emails?

> by
> having multiple email addresses with one exclusively for travel tickets
> (something again I'm sure the average traveller doesn't do)

The average traveller manages perfectly well without. You're very clearly
not average.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Bevan Price <bevanprice666@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 13/12/2021 16:35, Roland Perry wrote:
>
>>
>> I'd be happy if a train company with a train ticket booking app, could
>> be arsed to send the tickets to that App's existing ticket wallet.
>> Apparently Greater Anglia can't.
>
> That is a major problem. The railway companies are seemingly incapable
> of agreeing on a simple, universal and reliable system that will
> function everywhere throughout the network. Instead, a lot of TOCs seem
> to want their own, often incompatible, Apps.
> And can we expect DfT to produce something simple, universal and
> comprehensible to non-tech users ? I doubt it.
>
>

I've bought test purchases of tickets for the Bristol area, using both TfW
and GA apps; so allegations of mutual incompatibility are somewhat
overstated.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <puahrghpk13hqjvcqr1k6j9mqmat6rq3s5@4ax.com>, at 14:42:38 on
> Tue, 14 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
> remarked:
>>
>> Most people probably get so few emails that they don't mind getting
>> notified for all of them. People who get more than a handful of emails a
>> day are, by and large, either techies or politicians. The former are
>> perfectly capable of setting up their email systems so as to make the
>> system work for them rather than them having to work for the system. The
>> latter will just have to lump it.
>
> You've just created a massive excluded-middle of people who get loads of
> emails and aren't either techies or politicians.
>
> A relative who worked as a senior administrative manager at a secondary
> school once told me she got about one email a minute all day long. And
> no, they didn't have a budget to hire an assistant.

Presumably those emails were to admin@school.ac.uk rather than to
ms.hername@hotmail.com.

So her train, theatre and museum tickets are unlikely to get lost in the
hundreds of school emails.

Anna Noyd-Dryver