Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> wrote:
> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>> On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 15:16:10 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> In message <puahrghpk13hqjvcqr1k6j9mqmat6rq3s5@4ax.com>, at 14:42:38 on
>>> Tue, 14 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>
>>>> I don't mean that. I mean that using a phone over which you have no
>>>> control puts you in a very small minority. Almost all travellers who use
>>>> any form of electronic ticketing will do so on a phone that they own, or
>>>> at least have admin rights over.
>>>
>>> OK, so an alternative set of goalposts, I'll play.
>>>
>>> Your contention is that business users with work phones will normally
>>> have admin rights over them - pardon me while I tiptoe over all these IT
>>> department dead bodies.
>>
>> How many people travel on trains using electronic tickets delivered to a
>> company mobile phone? And, of those people, how many of them are using a
>> phone supplied by a company with an IT department which forces them to
>> use a particular combination of non-standard email app and PDF reader
>> app which makes it difficult or impossible to get tickets delivered to
>> that phone by email?
>>
>> The last time I had a company phone, it was a bog-standard iPhone
>> maintained by the IT department. Everything was Apple default apps. But,
>> y'know, that's fine. I'm not an Apple fanboi; I prefer Android on a
>> phone. But there was nothing that I needed to do on that phone that I
>> couldn't do. Apple Mail worked fine with the company email system. Apple
>> Mail opens PDFs natively, it doesn't even need to open an external app
>> to view them. So it would have been fine for electronic ticketing, if
>> I'd ever used it for that.
>>
>> Mark
>>
>
> As far as I can tell, any company phone these days that is controlled by a
> proper IT department is an iPhone. I guess that’s down to the fractured
> nature of Android.
>
>

My work phone and tablet are both Samsung/Android.

Both have an app (currently Intune) which allows the company to control
what apps I can install, add work apps automatically, delete forbidden
apps, and AFAIK log in remotely to delete forbidden stuff from my devices.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <sp1p0l$5bm$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:54:45 on Sat, 11 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <fkg6rg5n2nql0rhoc9kddc6r6f1ejhkm1m@4ax.com>, at 12:13:41 on
>>> Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>> remarked:
>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 10:17:23 -0000 (UTC), Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 07:38:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <sotsl1$8hv$1@dont-email.me>, at 21:32:17 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I?ve not been down the e-ticket buying route of late, but can?t you just
>>>>>>>> buy your tickets from one TOC regardless of the TOC used? Why
>>>>>>>> the need for
>>>>>>>> multiple apps? The Trainline seems popular with my iPhone toting
>>>>>>>> offspring.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The main reason is that interoperability is limited. With the only
>>>>>>> common denominator that they'll provide pickup at any TVM.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And that's the killer lack-of-feature for any TOC-specific app.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If I travel from here to Manchester by train on an off-peak return, then
>>>>>> I will use at least two, and, depending on the timings, possibly three
>>>>>> or even four different TOCs. And the choice of which TOCs I use may even
>>>>>> change on the way, as it did the last time I made that journey when one
>>>>>> of the trains I was on was delayed and I had to make a different
>>>>>> connection to the one I had been intending.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If the ticket is delivered to an app, therefore, the app needs to be
>>>>>> accepted as a valid ticket-presentation mechanism on every train I use
>>>>>> irrespective of operator. So the apps have to be interoperable,
>>>>>> otherwise they're useless for that kind of journey.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Having not travelled extensively of late, have we got to the point where
>>>>> apps now present QR codes, and are these now accepted on most TOC trains?
>>>>
>>>> I don't know. A simple QR code would be the most sensible option,
>>>> because that can be delivered by any mechanism and displayed on any
>>>> device
>>>
>>> Not much use when my ITSO card hasn't got a screen!
>>>
>>>> (and, as a last resort, can be printed, even if you have to
>>>> screenshot it to do so).
>>>
>>> I think some TOCs expressly forbid screenshots. As an anti-cloning
>>> measure I think.
>>>
>> That’s the fundamental difference between m and e-tickets. It doesn’t
>> matter if you clone an e-ticket. M-tickets are on their way out and were a
>> technology wrong turn.
>
> But we are where we are, and it seems very likely that TfW's brand new
> app has one foot firmly in the m-ticket camp.

I've just tried two purchases on the new TfW app, stopping short of
payment. Soham-Ely is offered as e-ticket, a choice of emailed PDF or
emailed Apple/Google Wallet ticket. Stourbridge Jn-Stourbridge Town is
offered as in-app m-ticket.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

In message <spj2to$f0v$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:28:08 on Fri, 17 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is
>>>>>>>>>>not viable
>>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a
>>>>>>>>>specific email
>>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>>>>> the rest of us.
>>>>
>>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>>
>>> I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>>> unnecessary
>>
>> And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
>> such tickets).
>
>AFAICT you’ve asserted that very few people buy tickets electronically but
>without offering any evidence.

You just need to look at the DfT statistics for how many of the
public use trains *at all*, then subtract those who use season
tickets, those who use Oyster/CCC PAYG [and equivalents in the
provinces], those who buy paper tickets, those who buy in-app
tickets, those who buy delivered-to-ITSO at the gate tickets and
finally ... the dregs who buy emailed m|e-tickets.

>Others have pointed out other contexts where they successfully buy
>superficially similar products. If you have any evidence that very few
>people buy rail tickets and have them delivered by email it would help
>your case.

Perhaps you could try putting some numbers to the cohorts I list above.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spj30t$ffe$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:29:49 on Fri, 17 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>
>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific email
>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>
>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>
>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>
>>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear to cope fine
>>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>>
>> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first place, or
>> if they do, have so little other email traffic that the other couple of
>> hundred emails a day which serious email users receive, don't swamp
>> them.
>
>Evidence, please.

Apart from the salami-slicing I described in a posting a few minutes
ago, I just don't see that many people waving PDFs (of any kind) at
gates and grippers.
--
Roland Perry

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 16:01:16 +0000
Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>In message <spj30t$ffe$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:29:49 on Fri, 17 Dec
>2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is not viable
>
>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific
>email
>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>
>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>
>>>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear to cope fine
>>>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>>>
>>> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first place, or
>>> if they do, have so little other email traffic that the other couple of
>>> hundred emails a day which serious email users receive, don't swamp
>>> them.
>>
>>Evidence, please.
>
>Apart from the salami-slicing I described in a posting a few minutes
>ago, I just don't see that many people waving PDFs (of any kind) at
>gates and grippers.

What if the pdf is displaying a QR code?

In message <9sjrrgd9251m11ptk4g25l9788niiusqtl@4ax.com>, at 12:11:25 on
Sat, 18 Dec 2021, Ken <ken@birchanger.com> remarked:
>On Fri, 17 Dec 2021 13:30:42 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is
>>>>>>>>>>not viable
>>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a
>>>>>>>>>specific email
>>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>>>>> the rest of us.
>>>>
>>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>>
>>>I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>>>unnecessary
>>
>>And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
>>such tickets).
>
>Wne I've been on long-distance train journeys over the last five years
>it's seemed to me that just about everyone under 40 proffers their
>phone to the gripper. So I don't think 'very few' stands.

But long distance trains represent a small fraction of train journeys.

(Some figures I saw soon after privatisation, which might have
"improved" a bit, said that of those people who ever caught a train
[they might have meant a walk-up ticked train], the average was two
trips a year. And no doubt those folks, like the ones who spend hours
researching the cheapest flights to Malaga, are happy to jump through
the hoops put in their way, given it happens so infrequently.)
--
Roland Perry

In message <spl13b$1h63$1@gioia.aioe.org>, at 16:09:15 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Muttley@dastardlyhq.com remarked:
>On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 16:01:16 +0000
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>In message <spj30t$ffe$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:29:49 on Fri, 17 Dec
>>2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$1@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is
>>>>>>>>>>not viable
>>
>>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a specific
>>email
>>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>>
>>>>> I'm twisting nothing; the majority of the population appear to cope fine
>>>>> with being emailed PDFs and showing them on their phones,
>>>>
>>>> No they don't, they simply don't buy the tickets in the first place, or
>>>> if they do, have so little other email traffic that the other couple of
>>>> hundred emails a day which serious email users receive, don't swamp
>>>> them.
>>>
>>>Evidence, please.
>>
>>Apart from the salami-slicing I described in a posting a few minutes
>>ago, I just don't see that many people waving PDFs (of any kind) at
>>gates and grippers.
>
>What if the pdf is displaying a QR code?

Aren't all of them?
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spj9nl$nop$6@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:21 on Sat, 18 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>
>>> The usability issue is why the train company is not sending the tickets
>>> I've been buying [for their trains, between their stations] to its own
>>> app's wallet. (I note no-one is prepared to address this fundamental
>>> issue, perhaps because they know they have no answer).
>>
>> I tried it, and the ticket was delivered seamlessly to the app.
>>
>> Perhaps you should contact GA directly, quoting your transaction reference
>> number, to determine why your transaction failed.
>>
>> I feel that would allow a more successful resolution than asking on Usenet.
>
> Perhaps you missed the part where I said I *had* contacted them.
>
> Tick Tock, they are now five [*working* - I didn't notice that the first
> time] days into the 10 days they claim to answer 90% of enquiries. Feels
> like much longer.
>
> And of course, they are sending replies to the ticketing email address
> on my mobile phone, which I don't usually look at unless I'm expecting a
> ticket that I just bought to be delivered. But I did check again just
> now.

Why don't you also get those emails on your PC?

In message <l28prg5sr7839hqfcoisht895gfk5kd4uo@4ax.com>, at 14:42:59 on
Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
remarked:
>On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 14:47:53 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>wrote:
>
>>In message <spcfdu$kum$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:38 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>>
>>>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>>
>>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>>
>>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>>
>>>I don't find the concept of 'email a pdf to be shown on my phone' to be in
>>>any way unique to TOCs.
>>
>>I've not encountered it when buying from Screwfix, Amazon or AliExpress
>>to name but a few sites I buy from most frequently.
>>
>I get Screwfix invoices e-mailed as PDFs, (usually before I am out of
>the shop door).

But if you order in advance, does the shop require you to show it on
your phone, before handing over the goods?

ps All Screwfix email me when I place a click-and-collect order is a
bloated mess of HTML, with the order details in text. On my classic
email client it starts off like this (apparently it's quite
!Important).

/* Client-specific Styles */ #outlook a { padding: 0; } /* Force
Outlook to provide a "view in browser" menu link. */ body { width:
100% !important; -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%; -ms-text-size-adjust:
100%; margin: 0; padding: 0; background-color: #fbfbfb; } /* Prevent
Webkit and Windows Mobile platforms from changing default font sizes,
while not breaking desktop design. */ .ExternalClass { width: 100%; }
/* Force Hotmail to display emails at full width */
..ExternalClass,.ExternalClass p,.ExternalClass span,.ExternalClass
font,.ExternalClass td,.ExternalClass div { line-height: 100%; } /*
Force Hotmail to display normal line spacing.*/ #backgroundTable {
margin: 0; padding: 0; width: 100% !important; line-height: 100%
!important; } img { outline: none; text-decoration: none; border:
none; -ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic; } a img { border: none; }
..image_fix { display: block; } p { margin: 0px 0px !important; } table
td { border-collapse: collapse; } table { border-collapse: collapse;
mso-table-lspace: 0pt; mso-table-rspace: 0pt; table-layout: fixed;
margin: auto; } table table table { table-layout: auto; } a { color:
#0053a0; } /*STYLES*/ table[class=full] { width: 100%; clear: both; }
/*HIDE MOBILE HEADER ON DESKTOP DISPLAY*/ @media only screen and
(min-width: 641px) { td[class=desktop-hide] { display: none
!important; } } /*IPAD STYLES*/ @media only screen and (max-width:
640px) { a[href^="tel"],a[href^="sms"] { text-decoration: none; color:
#0053a0; /* or whatever your want */ pointer-events: none; cursor:
default; } .mobile_link a[href^="tel"],.mobile_link a[href^="sms"] {
text-decoration: default; color: #0053a0 !important; pointer-events:
auto; cursor: default; } table[class=devicewidth] { width: 440px
!important; text-align: center !important; }
table[class=devicewidthinner] { width: 420px !important; text-align:
center !important; } td[class="order-info"] { line-height: 30px
!important; } td[class="mobilespacing"] { height: 10px !important; } }
/*IPHONE STYLES*/ @media only screen and (max-width: 480px) {
a[href^="tel"],a[href^="sms"] { text-decoration: none; color: #0a8cce;
/* or whatever your want */ pointer-events: none; cursor: default; }
..mobile_link a[href^="tel"],.mobile_link a[href^="sms"] {
text-decoration: default; color: #0a8cce !important; pointer-events:
auto; cursor: default; } table[class=devicewidth] { width: 280px
!important; text-align: center !important; }
table[class=devicewidthinner] { width: 260px !important; text-align:
center !important; } table[class=innerborder] { width: 250px
!important; text-align: center !important; }
table[class=innerbordercontent] { width: 240px !important; text-align:
center !important; } img[class=banner] { width: 280px !important;
height: 140px !important; } td[class=mobile-hide] { display: none
!important; } td[class="order-info"] { line-height: 30px !important; }
td[class="mobilespacing"] { height: 10px !important; } }
--
Roland Perry

In message <spkupm$8id$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:58 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:

>> But we are where we are, and it seems very likely that TfW's brand new
>> app has one foot firmly in the m-ticket camp.
>
>I've just tried two purchases on the new TfW app,

It has more than one foot, I expect.

>stopping short of payment. Soham-Ely is offered as e-ticket, a choice
>of emailed PDF or emailed Apple/Google Wallet ticket.

The GA app offers it as an emailed PDF (but one of my gripes is they
failed to send one of those emails, but they *have* later sent others);
no option for an in-wallet ticket, but they claim the PDF can somehow be
pulled into the wallet, but I can't see any menu entries which might
facilitate that.

>Stourbridge Jn-Stourbridge Town is offered as in-app m-ticket.

Nothing if not inconsistent!
--
Roland Perry

In message <spj9nk$nop$5@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:20 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> It's not an equivalent situation, because very very few trains have
>> someone at the door whose job it is to turn away people without tickets.
>>
>> When was the last time you encountered one? [OK, it used to happen on
>> E*]
>
>I don't recall it happening on Eurostar, because your ticket is checked on
>entry to security. If it is checked at the carriage door that's surely to
>aid smoother boarding, similar to cabin crew 'this aisle, 20 rows back on
>the right'?

Maybe they are, or perhaps checking you have the correct train, not the
one on the other platform (or at Ashford the one behind it in the
flight) heading for Paris rather than Brussels

>Checking tickets on the door happens, or used to, on certain notorious
>'last' trains in the gWr area (eg Bristol-Weston); one door open and
>tickets checked. Also the first Swansea-Cardiff, though that's mostly to
>discourage the clubbers from bringing fast food on board what later in the
>journey becomes a peak-hour commuter train. Both those depend hugely on who
>the crew are on any particular day, though.

I remember getting on the first Ely-Peterborough GA, one Sunday
(they must have been starting some there after overnight stabling,
rather than running them all to/from Colchester like they do today),
and it was figuratively knee deep in litter from the previous night.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spl2gk$1n7$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:33:24 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>> In message <spj9nl$nop$6@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:21 on Sat, 18 Dec
>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> The usability issue is why the train company is not sending the tickets
>>>> I've been buying [for their trains, between their stations] to its own
>>>> app's wallet. (I note no-one is prepared to address this fundamental
>>>> issue, perhaps because they know they have no answer).
>>>
>>> I tried it, and the ticket was delivered seamlessly to the app.
>>>
>>> Perhaps you should contact GA directly, quoting your transaction reference
>>> number, to determine why your transaction failed.
>>>
>>> I feel that would allow a more successful resolution than asking on Usenet.
>>
>> Perhaps you missed the part where I said I *had* contacted them.
>>
>> Tick Tock, they are now five [*working* - I didn't notice that the first
>> time] days into the 10 days they claim to answer 90% of enquiries. Feels
>> like much longer.
>>
>> And of course, they are sending replies to the ticketing email address
>> on my mobile phone, which I don't usually look at unless I'm expecting a
>> ticket that I just bought to be delivered. But I did check again just
>> now.
>
>Why don't you also get those emails on your PC?

Because they are sent to the email address I set up specially (by
popular demand) for my phone.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spj2to$f0v$1@dont-email.me>, at 22:28:08 on Fri, 17 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spfgab$p4t$2@dont-email.me>, at 13:52:11 on Thu, 16 Dec
>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <spd1do$lcr$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:25:44 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <spavjm$qqm$5@dont-email.me>, at 20:42:30 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Even using a specific email address for ticket providers is
>>>>>>>>>>> not viable
>>>>>>>>>>> as I'm illegally on two email lists neither of which provide the
>>>>>>>>>>> legally required link to remove myself for the same.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Of course it is viable, how long does it take to set up a
>>>>>>>>>> specific email
>>>>>>>>>> address for the purpose?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Not long. But it becomes usable when the junk email builds up.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> tickets2020@…
>>>>>>>> tickets2021@…
>>>>>>>> tickets2022@…
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> And thus you continue to twist the knife, appeasing vendors who
>>>>>>> externalise so much of the transactional admin to their customers.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think we need to give up. Roland appears to live in a parallel world to
>>>>>> the rest of us.
>>>>>
>>>>> JOOI, what percentage of ordinary members of the public do you think set
>>>>> up special email addresses for different online purchases?
>>>>
>>>> I'd suggest that the vast majority of the population find it entirely
>>>> unnecessary
>>>
>>> And I've already explained why that is (in particular that very few buy
>>> such tickets).
>>
>> AFAICT you’ve asserted that very few people buy tickets electronically but
>> without offering any evidence.
>
> You just need to look at the DfT statistics for how many of the
> public use trains *at all*, then subtract those who use season
> tickets, those who use Oyster/CCC PAYG [and equivalents in the
> provinces], those who buy paper tickets, those who buy in-app
> tickets, those who buy delivered-to-ITSO at the gate tickets and
> finally ... the dregs who buy emailed m|e-tickets.
>
>> Others have pointed out other contexts where they successfully buy
>> superficially similar products. If you have any evidence that very few
>> people buy rail tickets and have them delivered by email it would help
>> your case.
>
> Perhaps you could try putting some numbers to the cohorts I list above.

After you’ve so masterfully outlined the method, Roland, I don’t feel
inclined to do your homework for you. You might, however, like to define
“very few” before putting figures together so that we can tell whether the
numbers you produce match that criterion.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spapun$k2c$1@dont-email.me>, at 19:05:59 on Tue, 14 Dec
> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <sp7sjr$knq$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:32:59 on Mon, 13 Dec
>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sovdt9$qpk$2@dont-email.me>, at 11:32:57 on Fri, 10 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sotnpl$664$1@dont-email.me>, at 20:09:25 on Thu, 9 Dec 2021,
>>>>>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <soo710$nau$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:52:32 on Tue, 7
>>>>>>>>> Dec 2021,
>>>>>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If rail tickets were the only ecommerce product I ever bought, it
>>>>>>>>>>> might, just, be acceptable. But given that I buy from perhaps a
>>>>>>>>>>> hundred, it's a bit rich for whatever ATOC/Fat-Controller is called
>>>>>>>>>>> this week to expect me to bend over backwards for *their*
>>>>>>>>>>> convenience.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Far better, if we got back to the hear of this thread, they
>>>>>>>>>>> could be bothered to keep their ticket machines operational,
>>>>>>>>>>> or provide PERTIS machines, so passengers weren't forced to
>>>>>>>>>>> buy at the last minute using their mobile, stood in the rain
>>>>>>>>>>> in the station car park, on pain of a £100 fine.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> You need to get yourself organised, oh, and an umbrella. Personally if
>>>>>>>>>> it is pouring with rail I'd do the on-line ordering before I
>>>>>>>>>> got out of
>>>>>>>>>> the car.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But I don't know the TVM is broken until I get to it.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> If you buy your tickets at home/in the car it really doesn’t
>>>>>>>> matter if the
>>>>>>>> TVM is working or not.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Only if the flow actually *has* e-tickets available.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> But you've lost track of the reason for this debate: it's the
>>>>>>> circumstances that you arrive at the station to find that the TVM you
>>>>>>> wanted to buy a paper ticket from is broken, and next to it is a big
>>>>>>> hectoring sign all abut £100 fines for travelling without a ticket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> With one of the most common rail tickets I buy being £1.90, it's really
>>>>>>> not proportionate to be ordering them in advance from home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> What would be your reaction when boarding a bus if the driver said
>>>>>>> "sorry, my ticket machine is broken, you must go back home and buy a
>>>>>>> ticket there first". (And of course the next bus isn't until an hour
>>>>>>> later).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Do you have any evidence that that’s what the TOC’s response
>>>>>> would be if
>>>>>> you boarded the train without a ticket because the TVM was broken?
>>>>>
>>>>> It's not an equivalent situation…
>>>>
>>>> So why on earth did you bring it up?
>>>
>>> Because "go home and buy a ticket" is what the station signage is in
>>> effect saying. And with rail tickets generally cheaper than bus tickets
>>> in East Cambs, they are more likely to be used as a substitute for buses
>>> than in some other parts of the country.
>>
>> So you think it is an equivalent situation, then…
>
> Yes, I have a five mile trip to make, a choice of bus or train, and the
> biggest determinant is when the next service is. I'm not too posh to get
> a bus, especially as that saves me ten minutes walking. But the trains
> are cheaper [apart from later in the day when they are free], and more
> frequent.

And you think the TOC’s response to the TVM being broken would be to tell
you to go home and buy a ticket there?

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:
> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> It's not an equivalent situation, because very very few trains have
>> someone at the door whose job it is to turn away people without tickets.
>>
>> When was the last time you encountered one? [OK, it used to happen on
>> E*]
>>
>
> I don't recall it happening on Eurostar, because your ticket is checked on
> entry to security. If it is checked at the carriage door that's surely to
> aid smoother boarding, similar to cabin crew 'this aisle, 20 rows back on
> the right'?

Sleeper. I was surprised on getting on a NightJet a few years ago that the
attendant didn’t seem to have any idea whether the other couchettes in our
compartment were booked or not, so they clearly don’t operate the same way.

Sam

--
The entity formerly known as Sam.Wilson@ed.ac.uk
Spit the dummy to reply

In message <spl7d8$3nt$2@dont-email.me>, at 17:56:56 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>>>> Because "go home and buy a ticket" is what the station signage is in
>>>> effect saying. And with rail tickets generally cheaper than bus tickets
>>>> in East Cambs, they are more likely to be used as a substitute for buses
>>>> than in some other parts of the country.
>>>
>>> So you think it is an equivalent situation, then…
>>
>> Yes, I have a five mile trip to make, a choice of bus or train, and the
>> biggest determinant is when the next service is. I'm not too posh to get
>> a bus, especially as that saves me ten minutes walking. But the trains
>> are cheaper [apart from later in the day when they are free], and more
>> frequent.
>
>And you think the TOC’s response to the TVM being broken would be to tell
>you to go home and buy a ticket there?

If I didn't happen to have a smartphone on me, yes.

Unless they change the scheme, or the signage, and that's all I was
asking for.
--
Roland Perry

In message <spl7d8$3nt$1@dont-email.me>, at 17:56:56 on Sat, 18 Dec
2021, Sam Wilson <ukr@dummy.wislons.fastmail.co.uk> remarked:

>>> AFAICT you’ve asserted that very few people buy tickets electronically but
>>> without offering any evidence.
>>
>> You just need to look at the DfT statistics for how many of the
>> public use trains *at all*, then subtract those who use season
>> tickets, those who use Oyster/CCC PAYG [and equivalents in the
>> provinces], those who buy paper tickets, those who buy in-app
>> tickets, those who buy delivered-to-ITSO at the gate tickets and
>> finally ... the dregs who buy emailed m|e-tickets.
>>
>>> Others have pointed out other contexts where they successfully buy
>>> superficially similar products. If you have any evidence that very few
>>> people buy rail tickets and have them delivered by email it would help
>>> your case.
>>
>> Perhaps you could try putting some numbers to the cohorts I list above.
>
>After you’ve so masterfully outlined the method, Roland, I don’t feel
>inclined to do your homework for you. You might, however, like to define
>“very few” before putting figures together so that we can tell whether the
>numbers you produce match that criterion.

Of the adult population of 50 million, I think "very few" could be
anything under million.
--
Roland Perry

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spag4t$bbf$1@dont-email.me>, at 16:18:37 on Tue, 14 Dec
> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>> In message <spa1qc$mf$1@dont-email.me>, at 12:14:04 on Tue, 14 Dec 2021,
>>> Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <sp9l43$ok5$1@dont-email.me>, at 08:37:23 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sp1ut8$f9q$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:35:20 on Sat, 11 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>>>> On 11/12/2021 07:57, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>>>> In message <7ed7rghlh7i73th432mvlq6h2f1c9nrcaq@4ax.com>, at 20:22:08
>>>>>>>>> on Fri, 10 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 17:07:13 -0000 (UTC),
>>>>>>>>>> Muttley@dastardlyhq.com wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Fri, 10 Dec 2021 14:13:07 +0000
>>>>>>>>>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <csk4rghk31luqbj54d6mbr93pge8ssj7jd@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>>> 19:09:15 on
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Thu, 9 Dec 2021 17:20:29 +0000, Roland Perry
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> In message <ub84rg1q1cu4uqd19rfbjrsvs6u3u98a1u@4ax.com>, at
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 15:38:03 on
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Thu, 9 Dec 2021, Mark Goodge <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> remarked:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Well, my use case seems to be similar to yours (multiple
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> accounts from different sources, several of which are high
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> volume), so my experience seems to me to be relevant.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But how often do you read a hundred emails a day via Gmail on your
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> phone?
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Not very often, because my job is very office based so I rarely
>>>>>>>>>>>>> need to read large numbers of emails while out and about. Most
>>>>>>>>>>>>> can wait until I get back. But I don't have any real
>>>>>>>>>>>>> difficulty reading them when I do need to.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which is what Spark claims to be better at, but it's still a
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> compromise when the train company is insisting on using 1992
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> deliver train tickets, when there are numerous far better
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> more modern ways to do it.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Email is, at least, reasonably universal. I'm not a huge fan
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> to install a different app for every service I use. Maybe
>>>>>>>>>>>>> TOCs could offer ticket delivery via WhatsApp.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Something less century than PDF, anyway.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> PDFs work everywhere. Not everyone has WhatsCrap or similar
>>>>>>>>>>> social media nonsense installed.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> WhatsApp is, like email, SMS and Usenet, a delivery mechanism, not a
>>>>>>>>>> file format. Just like email, WhatsApp can be used to deliver a PDF
>>>>>>>>>> containing a QR code that forms an e-ticket.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Pedantically, that would be an m-ticket (a ticket that's a bearer
>>>>>>>>> bond stored on your mobile phone); e-tickets are entries on a central
>>>>>>>>> database where you present some sort of independently verifiable
>>>>>>>>> credential that they relate to you.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Outside the terminal nerds who gives a monkeys?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> It matters because of the alternative requirements for always-on
>>>>>>> connectivity vs validating [composting?] a ticket before travel.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Modern online train ticketing is rife with warnings that order
>>>>>>> confirmations aren't tickets, and when there's a two-stage process
>>>>>>> involved it can't do any harm for passengers to understand a little
>>>>>>> about the underlying processes.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Where it might really matter is the situation where they've bought
>>>>>>> ticket for someone else. And anti-cloning measures introduced by the
>>>>>>> transport operator might make that next to impossible.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> FWIW, extended family have been passing around some online theatre
>>>>>>> tickets as people juggle their Covid status, and while some have
>>>>>>> informal processes, others are more tricky. It's hardly ever as simple
>>>>>>> as just handing over a bit of paper.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The rail industry is removing (removed?) m-tickets, so stop worrying.
>>>>>
>>>>> I would characterise an in-App ticket (as GA and EMR purport to support)
>>>>> as an m-ticket, unless it's an e-ticket in disguise, in which case it
>>>>> would require a facility to export to a different phone to properly
>>>>> qualify.
>>>>
>>>> Well you are alone in that characterisation. At the very basic level, if
>>>> you can screenshot the in-app ticket (or even photograph it with another
>>>> phone) and the copy remains valid it is an e-ticket.
>>>
>>> *If* the copy remains valid. Some TOCs specifically exclude a screenshot
>>> from being valid, and other transport operators (buses, I've got
>>> insufficient experience with TOCs) watermark the in-app m-ticket at the
>>> point of display, so that it's obvious (if not already) that it's not
>>> just a static screenshot.
>>>
>> That’s exactly the point. If the copy remains valid it’s an e-ticket.
>
> No, sometimes a TOC will accept a copy of an m-ticket, sometimes they
> won't [accept it at all].
>
> Think of it like paper tickets - how likely is it that a TOC would
> accept a photocopy of one?
>
> On the other hand, they positively encourage people [various wording has
> been quoted the last few days] to make copies of PDFs to show them. But
> that doesn't mean every such PDF is either literally, or transformed
> into by the copying process, an e-ticket.
>
> They might be content that an AP ticket with seat number on a specific
> train, is sufficient proof someone is entitled to occupy that empty
> seat, without the gripper having to go online and query a database.
>
>> the fact remains that an e-ticket is a pointer and an m-ticket is the
>> actual ticket.
>
> You appear to be fiercely agreeing with me. Of course, it doesn't help
> that TOCs often conflate the two terms in their literature.
>
> ps It's still not clear to me (maybe someone can explain) why a typical
> e-ticket is a massive barcode, when all it needs is perhaps an
> 8-character code, with all the rest being looked up in real time.
>
> Or do we indeed have some hybrid animal, an e-ticket that's
> redundantly offline coded with all the information we might expect
> to find on an m-ticket?

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:

>
> And that's not too disjoint from the idea that if a TVM isn't working
> there should be a £1-in-the-slot PERTIS machine as a gesture to the
> idea you aren't entirely fare-dodger.

Who carries coins in 2021?!

Anna Noyd-Dryver

<martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk> wrote:

>
> The onboard wifi is much better than you think. The only dropouts
> between Cardiff and London Paddington, Portsmouth Harbour, & Newton
> Abbot railway stations are a few tunnels and one short stretch near
> Dawlish Warren.
>
> I'm sure the onboard Wifi's have the correct ports open for the TTI apps
> to operate.
>

IIRC the Severn Tunnel doesn't have signal, but Badminton and Alderton
tunnels definitely do.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spcbvm$v0u$1@dont-email.me>, at 09:19:49 on Wed, 15 Dec
> 2021, martin.coffee@round-midnight.org.uk remarked:
>> On 15/12/2021 07:17, Tweed wrote:
>>> Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> In message <t02irgtihactd9p5p7bktssvd1cqbf203u@4ax.com>, at 21:15:49 on
>>>> Tue, 14 Dec 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>> On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 19:24:03 +0000, Mark Goodge
>>>>> <usenet@listmail.good-stuff.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, 14 Dec 2021 17:40:47 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In message <spaivj$1j6$3@dont-email.me>, at 17:07:00 on Tue, 14 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Recliner <recliner.usenet@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> You can perfectly well view PDFs with no Adobe software installed.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's true, although the rail ticketing sites direct you very strongly
>>>>>>> towards using Adobe. Maybe that's something else they ought to review?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I think the point is that Acrobat is both cross-platform and a dedicated
>>>>>> PDF viewer, whereas other apps may only work for one or the other
>>>>>> platform and other cross-platform apps, while they may do PDF as a
>>>>>> secondary function, are not aimed specifically at that use case. So
>>>>>> suggesting that customers install Acrobat is probably the simplest way
>>>>>> of helping those who do not already have a PDF viewer installed, because
>>>>>> the TOCs know it will work for everybody.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Adobe owns the PDF format, so there may be some requirement to mention
>>>>> it when recommending PDF viewers.
>>>>>
>>>>> In any case, with large, complex PDFs (not rail tickets), not all
>>>>> viewers produce the same rendering, and it would normally be the case
>>>>> that the Adobe rendering is most likely to be correct (if only because
>>>>> it's the one rendering that's very likely to have been tested by the
>>>>> author of the PDF).
>>>>>
>>>>> But I wouldn't have expected an experienced PC user (where the same
>>>>> considerations apply) like Roland to have been tripped up so badly on
>>>>> this trivial issue that doesn't seem to phase even novice mobile phone
>>>>> users. It's as if Roland has only just acquired his very first Android
>>>>> phone and is baffled by all the standard stuff that others take for
>>>>> granted.
>>>>
>>>> An almost Norman-esque false premise there. My objection to PDFs is the
>>>> way that it turns the delivery of tickets into a multi-phase process
>>>> (which have several stages where extra glitches might, and indeed do,
>>>> occur). Rather than simply using the 21st Century technology available
>>>> within the mobile phone platform, to push them into the app's wallet.
>>>>
>>>> The secondary issue (which we should try to avoid hi-jacking the more
>>>> fundamental proposition) is that the user might have to specially
>>>> download and install (and possibly sign into) a PDF viewer.
>>> It’s already been pointed out to you that the apps accept tickets
>>> to their
>>> in built wallet. PDF is an alternate means of delivery. Choice is a good
>>> thing. If I were going on a long or expensive journey I’d print off the pdf
>>> at home as a backup. My one real objection to phone based ticketing is that
>>> they consider you to have no ticket if your phone fails. They make no
>>> effort or provision to look things up on the back end, unlike an airline
>>> (probably excepting Ryanair) who will find your booking if you wave your
>>> passport at the desk. Even something like a nominal £1 fee to stop everyone
>>> winding up the ticket inspector with spurious claims of phone non
>>> functionality would be a step forwards.
>>>
>> Now that most (but not quite all) trains have USB charge points I
>> suggest the time has come to make the flat battery rule only apply when
>> there are operative charge points.
>>
>> XC Class 170s and the GWR HSTs are the only consists I know of without
>> USB charge points.
>
> While I haven't be "getting out" much recently because of the pandemic,
> I'm sure there were many trains which just had 13A sockets (not USB
> points).

For example, those just mentioned…

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spkupm$8id$5@dont-email.me>, at 15:29:58 on Sat, 18 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>>> But we are where we are, and it seems very likely that TfW's brand new
>>> app has one foot firmly in the m-ticket camp.
>>
>> I've just tried two purchases on the new TfW app,
>
> It has more than one foot, I expect.
>
>> stopping short of payment. Soham-Ely is offered as e-ticket, a choice
>> of emailed PDF or emailed Apple/Google Wallet ticket.
>
> The GA app offers it as an emailed PDF (but one of my gripes is they
> failed to send one of those emails,

Following this thread, I'm tempted to believe they have your email address
blacklisted and deliberately don't send you valid tickets which you've
purchased, just to increase their Usenet profile.

> but they *have* later sent others);
> no option for an in-wallet ticket,

I was offered both by the GA app for that journey.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
> In message <spj9nk$nop$5@dont-email.me>, at 00:24:20 on Sat, 18 Dec
> 2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>
>> Checking tickets on the door happens, or used to, on certain notorious
>> 'last' trains in the gWr area (eg Bristol-Weston); one door open and
>> tickets checked. Also the first Swansea-Cardiff, though that's mostly to
>> discourage the clubbers from bringing fast food on board what later in the
>> journey becomes a peak-hour commuter train. Both those depend hugely on who
>> the crew are on any particular day, though.
>
> I remember getting on the first Ely-Peterborough GA, one Sunday
> (they must have been starting some there after overnight stabling,
> rather than running them all to/from Colchester like they do today),
> and it was figuratively knee deep in litter from the previous night.
>

Having recently experienced this a couple of times, I can say it's
generally nothing to do with the crew on that morning.

Most likely it's a planned-but-irregular overnight where the train is
supposed to be cleaned while outstabled, but for some reason, isn't. Or
more irresponsibly, depending on the TOC and location, someone has decided
that cleaning isn't necessary.

Anna Noyd-Dryver

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 20:37:15 -0000 (UTC), Anna Noyd-Dryver
<anna@noyd-dryver.com> wrote:

>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>
>>
>> And that's not too disjoint from the idea that if a TVM isn't working
>> there should be a £1-in-the-slot PERTIS machine as a gesture to the
>> idea you aren't entirely fare-dodger.
>
>Who carries coins in 2021?!
>
<raises hand>
Supermarket trolleys.
Small purchases.
Emergency backup for plastic.
Change for people unable to use plastic.

On Sat, 18 Dec 2021 16:29:04 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
wrote:

>In message <l28prg5sr7839hqfcoisht895gfk5kd4uo@4ax.com>, at 14:42:59 on
>Fri, 17 Dec 2021, Charles Ellson <charlesellson@btinternet.com>
>remarked:
>>On Wed, 15 Dec 2021 14:47:53 +0000, Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk>
>>wrote:
>>
>>>In message <spcfdu$kum$3@dont-email.me>, at 10:18:38 on Wed, 15 Dec
>>>2021, Anna Noyd-Dryver <anna@noyd-dryver.com> remarked:
>>>>Roland Perry <roland@perry.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> In message <soko3p$ccm$2@dont-email.me>, at 10:19:37 on Mon, 6 Dec 2021,
>>>>> Graeme Wall <rail@greywall.demon.co.uk> remarked:
>>>>>> On 06/12/2021 09:28, Roland Perry wrote:
>>>>>>> In message <sog0jr$k1t$1@dont-email.me>, at 15:14:03 on Sat, 4 Dec
>>>>>>> 2021, Tweed <usenet.tweed@gmail.com> remarked:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> There’s also nothing to stop you having an entirely different email
>>>>>>>> account, with a separate inbox for tickets. Most email clients handle
>>>>>>>> multiple accounts.
>>>>>
>>>>>>> That's something which doesn't scale on phones. I've tried this,
>>>>>>> specifically the last time this subject cropped up. And beyond about a
>>>>>>> dozen it gets unmanageable.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You don't need a dozen, just one for tickets.
>>>>>
>>>>> Of all the transactions I might want to do on a phone, what gives trains
>>>>> companies the right to make such unique demands. (btw, the "dozen" is
>>>>> the number of TOCs I might use).
>>>>
>>>>I don't find the concept of 'email a pdf to be shown on my phone' to be in
>>>>any way unique to TOCs.
>>>
>>>I've not encountered it when buying from Screwfix, Amazon or AliExpress
>>>to name but a few sites I buy from most frequently.
>>>
>>I get Screwfix invoices e-mailed as PDFs, (usually before I am out of
>>the shop door).
>
>But if you order in advance, does the shop require you to show it on
>your phone, before handing over the goods?
>
Stating last four digits and surname generally sufficed during the
"only one person in the shop" period but I suspect if I had gone to
collect something expensive then they might have been a bit more
stringent. Now that I actually get to the counter I usually hold the
phone out anyway as a screen and mask tend to get in the way of
conversation; at other collection places for online-order packages
this is usual so that the barcode/ QR code can be scanned.

>ps All Screwfix email me when I place a click-and-collect order is a
> bloated mess of HTML, with the order details in text. On my classic
> email client it starts off like this (apparently it's quite
> !Important).
>
>/* Client-specific Styles */ #outlook a { padding: 0; } /* Force
>Outlook to provide a "view in browser" menu link. */ body { width:
>100% !important; -webkit-text-size-adjust: 100%; -ms-text-size-adjust:
>100%; margin: 0; padding: 0; background-color: #fbfbfb; } /* Prevent
>Webkit and Windows Mobile platforms from changing default font sizes,
>while not breaking desktop design. */ .ExternalClass { width: 100%; }
>/* Force Hotmail to display emails at full width */
>.ExternalClass,.ExternalClass p,.ExternalClass span,.ExternalClass
>font,.ExternalClass td,.ExternalClass div { line-height: 100%; } /*
>Force Hotmail to display normal line spacing.*/ #backgroundTable {
>margin: 0; padding: 0; width: 100% !important; line-height: 100%
>!important; } img { outline: none; text-decoration: none; border:
>none; -ms-interpolation-mode: bicubic; } a img { border: none; }
>.image_fix { display: block; } p { margin: 0px 0px !important; } table
>td { border-collapse: collapse; } table { border-collapse: collapse;
>mso-table-lspace: 0pt; mso-table-rspace: 0pt; table-layout: fixed;
>margin: auto; } table table table { table-layout: auto; } a { color:
>#0053a0; } /*STYLES*/ table[class=full] { width: 100%; clear: both; }
>/*HIDE MOBILE HEADER ON DESKTOP DISPLAY*/ @media only screen and
>(min-width: 641px) { td[class=desktop-hide] { display: none
>!important; } } /*IPAD STYLES*/ @media only screen and (max-width:
>640px) { a[href^="tel"],a[href^="sms"] { text-decoration: none; color:
>#0053a0; /* or whatever your want */ pointer-events: none; cursor:
>default; } .mobile_link a[href^="tel"],.mobile_link a[href^="sms"] {
>text-decoration: default; color: #0053a0 !important; pointer-events:
>auto; cursor: default; } table[class=devicewidth] { width: 440px
>!important; text-align: center !important; }
>table[class=devicewidthinner] { width: 420px !important; text-align:
>center !important; } td[class="order-info"] { line-height: 30px
>!important; } td[class="mobilespacing"] { height: 10px !important; } }
>/*IPHONE STYLES*/ @media only screen and (max-width: 480px) {
>a[href^="tel"],a[href^="sms"] { text-decoration: none; color: #0a8cce;
>/* or whatever your want */ pointer-events: none; cursor: default; }
>.mobile_link a[href^="tel"],.mobile_link a[href^="sms"] {
>text-decoration: default; color: #0a8cce !important; pointer-events:
>auto; cursor: default; } table[class=devicewidth] { width: 280px
>!important; text-align: center !important; }
>table[class=devicewidthinner] { width: 260px !important; text-align:
>center !important; } table[class=innerborder] { width: 250px
>!important; text-align: center !important; }
>table[class=innerbordercontent] { width: 240px !important; text-align:
>center !important; } img[class=banner] { width: 280px !important;
>height: 140px !important; } td[class=mobile-hide] { display: none
>!important; } td[class="order-info"] { line-height: 30px !important; }
>td[class="mobilespacing"] { height: 10px !important; } }