On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 19:52:54 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 7:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>
>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>
>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>
>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>
>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>
>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>
>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>
>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>
>
>I was not being pejorative or hyperbolic. Here's the actual
>list:
>https://emke.uwm.edu/entry/milwaukee-mayors/
>
>No exceptions since 1898.

Well... it's called democracy. Vote for who you want to rule or
perhaps "vote for who will give you the most :-)
--
Cheers,

John B.

On 3/8/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:09:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>
>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access to rapid
>> fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person must pull the trigger
>> to shoot someone; but in other nations with more rational policies,
>> people don't shoot people nearly as often.
>>
>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the lack of rapid
>> fire arms. That's because things like ARs have no practical advantages
>> for civilians.
>
>
> But Frank, as I and Andrew have both told you, and given reference,
> rifles, i.e, those terrifying AR type guns, are used in murders far
> less often then other type of firearms. Less often, even, then hands
> and feet.
>
> But in spite of all evidence to the contrary you continue to curse and
> damn the AR type. Dementia? or Lies?

Neither. First, as noted, the "firearm type undetermined" category was
so large that your claims have little value. (When someone shoots a
person and leaves, it's quite difficult to determine the length of the
barrel. Isn't that obvious?)

Second, although you won't admit it, all deaths are not equal. Society
rightly considers mass shootings - like killing a couple dozen grade
school kids - to be particularly heinous. Mass shootings happen with
sickening regularity in the U.S., certainly far more often than in
comparable developed nations. For the worst mass shootings, the AR is
perhaps the top weapon of choice.

That counts as a MAJOR societal disadvantage for the AR and its kin.

To balance that major disadvantage, the AR offers the following
practical advantages: "Dude, it's cool!" "It looks like Rambo's gun!"
"It makes me FEEL like Rambo!" "I can put 20 rounds into a
man-shaped target in ten seconds!" "I can buy all kinds of cool, deadly
accessories!" "If Those Other People ever storm my suburban bungalow, I
can take out a whole crowd of them!"

Oh, and "Ah LIKE my gun!"

Guys who want to pretend to be Rambo should join a _real_ militia. The
National Guard qualifies.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>
>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>
>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>
>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>
>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>> demographic marker.
>>>
>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>
>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>
>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>
>>
>> Nice topic drift there.
>>
>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>
> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>
> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.

What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 4:58 PM, sms wrote:
>
>
> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly educated. I
> love the poorly educated.”

And though unsaid: "And I hope to keep them poorly educated."

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>
>>>>> John B.
>>>>
>>>> No.
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>>>> by his mother."
>>>>
>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>
>>>
>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>>> the like.
>>
>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>
>
> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>
> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
> mentioned.

Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
that went away as soon as I began reading your link.

Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
"psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.

Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
violence problem?

The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.

National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:31:53 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:26:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>>>> city.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago.  And if my
>>>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>>>> too crazy.  Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>>>> operations.  And him murdering people was not official
>>>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>>>> about them
>>>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>>>>> years?  If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>>>> chalk it up to random events.  But if it happens
>>>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>>>> sure the strict
>>>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>>>> of people
>>>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>>>
>>>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>>>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>>>
>>>>> See
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>>>> people shoot
>>>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>>>
>>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>>>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>>>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>>>> nearly as often.
>>>>>
>>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>>>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large numbers of
>>>> legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>>>
>>> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle marketing
>>> hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend your home," product
>>> placement in countless NCIS TV shows, ludicrous fantasy posters of a
>>> heavily muscled Trump brandishing one...
>>>
>>>> ... whose owners/operators
>>>> are civil, responsible and not engaged in violence.
>>>
>>> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by saying "Only a
>>> small percentage murder people." That's way beyond the liberal "Gold
>>> medal for participating!" given to every kid in class.
>>>
>>> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault his teacher
>>> this year!"
>>>
>>> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a minority
>>> would explode them. But it would still be a really stupid idea.
>>
>> But you are just making things up. No gold medals for participating
>> true... but no gold medals for not stealing cars, and no gold medal
>> for not robbing banks, and on and on.
>>
>> I pointed out that bicycles had killed more people - some hundred
>> times more, then the terrible "mass shootings" and you dismissed them
>> although they were higher then the combat deaths in Vietnam which I
>> remind you so terrified the youth of American that they fled the
>> country.
>>
>> And you will leap into the fray, shouting "BUT bicycles have an
>> advantage!" Yup, I agree, an advantage in killing people. Think of it,
>> 100 times as many dead on bicycles as died in mass shootings.
>>
>> I think I'll let you keep those advantages. I don't want any part of
>> them.
>
>Do you ride a bike? You have claimed to.
>

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>
>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>
>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>
>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>
>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>
>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>
>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>
>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>
>What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.

Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
for those over 60.

But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
socialistic services as I stated?

That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?

That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?

Or what?
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
<frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

>On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> No.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>>>>> by his mother."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>>>> the like.
>>>
>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>>
>>
>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>>
>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>> mentioned.
>
>Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
>that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
>
>Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
>"psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
>things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
>mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
>make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>
>Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
>the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
>violence problem?
>
>The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
>population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
>
>National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
>gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.

Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?

And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
struggling against the non-believers.
I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
(population wise) Islamic country in the world.

And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.

But if bad gun laws are really the cause of the levels of crime in the
U.S. how do you explain the fact that some states, Vermont comes to
mind here, have very, very lax, or non existent, gun laws and a very
low level of gun crime. The "upper" New England States, New Hampshire,
Vermont and Maine have gun ownership of 41.10%, 50.5% and 46.80% and a
gun homicide rate of 0.6/100,000, 1.3 and 1.2. And these states are
not unique. Oregon has gun ownership of 50,8% and a firearm homicide
rate of 0.8.

But Louisiana has a gun ownership rate of 53.1% and a firearm homicide
rate of 8.1. roughly 3% more guns then Vermont and Oregon and as much
as 10 times the gun crime.

Your arguments don't seem to reflect realism.

But that is the nice thing about bigotry isn't it. One doesn't have to
mess about with logic, data or facts. Just seize onto any old idea and
you are set for life.
--
Cheers,

John B.

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 10:15:24 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
> >>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
> >>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
> >>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
> >>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Cheers,
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> John B.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> No.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
> >>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
> >>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
> >>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
> >>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
> >>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
> >>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
> >>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
> >>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
> >>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
> >>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
> >>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
> >>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
> >>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
> >>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
> >>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
> >>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
> >>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
> >>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
> >>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
> >>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
> >>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
> >>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
> >>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
> >>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
> >>>>> by his mother."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
> >>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
> >>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
> >>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
> >>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
> >>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
> >>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
> >>>> the like.
> >>>
> >>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
> >>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
> >>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
> >>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
> >>>
> >>
> >> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
> >> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
> >>
> >> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
> >> mentioned.
> >
> >Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
> >that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
> >
> >Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
> >"psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
> >things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
> >mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
> >make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
> >
> >Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
> >the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
> >violence problem?
> >
> >The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
> >population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
> >
> >National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
> >gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
>
> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
> struggling against the non-believers.
> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
>
> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.

I'm sure you already know this John, but just in case I will spell it out. In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist who murders white Caucasian Christians. That is the definition. Just like "Coke" means any and all carbonated soft drinks. Doesn't matter if its officially a Coca Cola product or a Pepsi Cola or a Mountain Dew or a 7-Up. Its all Coke. All Jihadis are Arab Muslim terrorists.

>
> But if bad gun laws are really the cause of the levels of crime in the
> U.S. how do you explain the fact that some states, Vermont comes to
> mind here, have very, very lax, or non existent, gun laws and a very
> low level of gun crime. The "upper" New England States, New Hampshire,
> Vermont and Maine have gun ownership of 41.10%, 50.5% and 46.80% and a
> gun homicide rate of 0.6/100,000, 1.3 and 1.2. And these states are
> not unique. Oregon has gun ownership of 50,8% and a firearm homicide
> rate of 0.8.
>
> But Louisiana has a gun ownership rate of 53.1% and a firearm homicide
> rate of 8.1. roughly 3% more guns then Vermont and Oregon and as much
> as 10 times the gun crime.
>
> Your arguments don't seem to reflect realism.

Andy in a prior post mentioned having different laws for different areas of the USA. He said rural Wisconsin needs different laws than Milwaukee I believe. And that may be true. But for a country as diverse as the USA, with free travel between all regions, we need one law and rule for everywhere. So doesn't it make sense to implement a law that results in the best outcome, least deaths, for all of USA combined? An analogy: Speeding laws. Some people are able to drive 100 mph and be safe. Others can easily handle 120 mph. Yet most road highways in the USA have 55 or 65 or so speed limits. For the collective good of everyone, we decided to "harm" the fast drivers.

On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 9:02:25 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:31:53 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
> >On 3/8/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:26:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
> >>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
> >>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
> >>>>>>>>> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
> >>>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
> >>>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
> >>>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
> >>>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
> >>>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
> >>>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
> >>>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
> >>>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
> >>>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
> >>>>>>>>>>> period.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> Well,
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
> >>>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
> >>>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
> >>>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
> >>>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
> >>>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
> >>>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
> >>>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
> >>>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
> >>>>>>>> and down the
> >>>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
> >>>>>>>> you know.
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
> >>>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
> >>>>>>>> maniac running
> >>>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
> >>>>>>>> you can't out
> >>>>>>>> run him?
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
> >>>>>>>> "went mad" and
> >>>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
> >>>>>>>> think) largest
> >>>>>>>> city.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my
> >>>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
> >>>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
> >>>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
> >>>>>>> too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns
> >>>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
> >>>>>>> operations. And him murdering people was not official
> >>>>>>> military protocol.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
> >>>>>>>> illustrate the
> >>>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
> >>>>>>>> happened in
> >>>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
> >>>>>>>> about them
> >>>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
> >>>>>>>> the matter with
> >>>>>>>> Him"?
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
> >>>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
> >>>>>>> years? If it happens once, as in your example, then
> >>>>>>> chalk it up to random events. But if it happens
> >>>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
> >>>>>>> studied and a solution found.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
> >>>>>> sure the strict
> >>>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
> >>>>>> of people
> >>>>>> shooting a whole family.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
> >>>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
> >>>>>
> >>>>> See
> >>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
> >>>>>
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
> >>>>>> people shoot
> >>>>>> people". So why blame guns?
> >>>>>
> >>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
> >>>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
> >>>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
> >>>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
> >>>>> nearly as often.
> >>>>>
> >>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
> >>>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
> >>>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large numbers of
> >>>> legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
> >>>
> >>> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle marketing
> >>> hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend your home," product
> >>> placement in countless NCIS TV shows, ludicrous fantasy posters of a
> >>> heavily muscled Trump brandishing one...
> >>>
> >>>> ... whose owners/operators
> >>>> are civil, responsible and not engaged in violence.
> >>>
> >>> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by saying "Only a
> >>> small percentage murder people." That's way beyond the liberal "Gold
> >>> medal for participating!" given to every kid in class.
> >>>
> >>> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault his teacher
> >>> this year!"
> >>>
> >>> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a minority
> >>> would explode them. But it would still be a really stupid idea.
> >>
> >> But you are just making things up. No gold medals for participating
> >> true... but no gold medals for not stealing cars, and no gold medal
> >> for not robbing banks, and on and on.
> >>
> >> I pointed out that bicycles had killed more people - some hundred
> >> times more, then the terrible "mass shootings" and you dismissed them
> >> although they were higher then the combat deaths in Vietnam which I
> >> remind you so terrified the youth of American that they fled the
> >> country.
> >>
> >> And you will leap into the fray, shouting "BUT bicycles have an
> >> advantage!" Yup, I agree, an advantage in killing people. Think of it,
> >> 100 times as many dead on bicycles as died in mass shootings.
> >>
> >> I think I'll let you keep those advantages. I don't want any part of
> >> them.
> >
> >Do you ride a bike? You have claimed to.
> >
> For about 25 years until my hip got so bad - I broke my pelvis (one of
> your fabled advantages of a bicycle I guess) and now I walk with a
> cane.
> >That indicates you judge the benefits of riding to be greater than the
> >detriments. And as I've indicated via many citations, you'd be right.
> >
> >So are you now arguing against your own behavior?? Really??
> Nope Frank. I rode a bicycle simply because I enjoyed riding it. Just
> as I ran in foot races because I enjoyed it. I can honestly say that I
> never sat down and added up the advantages and disadvantages of
> either. Or spending 20 years in the Air Force, or working in foreign
> countries. I just did as I damned pleased.

On 3/8/2022 8:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:26:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or
>>>>>>>>>>>>> bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio
>>>>>>>>> shot to
>>>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To
>>>>>>>> get hit,
>>>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>>>> city.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And
>>>>>>> if my
>>>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>>>> too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military
>>>>>>> guns
>>>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>>>> operations. And him murdering people was not official
>>>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had
>>>>>>>> this
>>>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>>>> about them
>>>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past
>>>>>>> 20-30
>>>>>>> years? If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>>>> chalk it up to random events. But if it happens
>>>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs
>>>>>>> to be
>>>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>>>> sure the strict
>>>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>>>> of people
>>>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>>>
>>>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>>>
>>>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in
>>>>> Thailand. As
>>>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>>>
>>>>> See
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>>>> people shoot
>>>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>>>
>>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered
>>>>> access
>>>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other
>>>>> nations
>>>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>>>> nearly as often.
>>>>>
>>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs
>>>>> have
>>>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly
>>>> large numbers of
>>>> legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>>>
>>> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of
>>> subtle marketing
>>> hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend your
>>> home," product
>>> placement in countless NCIS TV shows, ludicrous fantasy
>>> posters of a
>>> heavily muscled Trump brandishing one...
>>>
>>>> ... whose owners/operators
>>>> are civil, responsible and not engaged in violence.
>>>
>>> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by
>>> saying "Only a
>>> small percentage murder people." That's way beyond the
>>> liberal "Gold
>>> medal for participating!" given to every kid in class.
>>>
>>> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't
>>> assault his teacher
>>> this year!"
>>>
>>> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only
>>> a minority
>>> would explode them. But it would still be a really stupid
>>> idea.
>>
>> But you are just making things up. No gold medals for
>> participating
>> true... but no gold medals for not stealing cars, and no
>> gold medal
>> for not robbing banks, and on and on.
>>
>> I pointed out that bicycles had killed more people - some
>> hundred
>> times more, then the terrible "mass shootings" and you
>> dismissed them
>> although they were higher then the combat deaths in
>> Vietnam which I
>> remind you so terrified the youth of American that they
>> fled the
>> country.
>>
>> And you will leap into the fray, shouting "BUT bicycles
>> have an
>> advantage!" Yup, I agree, an advantage in killing people.
>> Think of it,
>> 100 times as many dead on bicycles as died in mass shootings.
>>
>> I think I'll let you keep those advantages. I don't want
>> any part of
>> them.
>
> Do you ride a bike? You have claimed to.
>
> That indicates you judge the benefits of riding to be
> greater than the detriments. And as I've indicated via many
> citations, you'd be right.
>
> So are you now arguing against your own behavior?? Really??
>

On 3/8/2022 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:09:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered
>>> access to rapid
>>> fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person must
>>> pull the trigger
>>> to shoot someone; but in other nations with more rational
>>> policies,
>>> people don't shoot people nearly as often.
>>>
>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>> lack of rapid
>>> fire arms. That's because things like ARs have no
>>> practical advantages
>>> for civilians.
>>
>>
>> But Frank, as I and Andrew have both told you, and given
>> reference,
>> rifles, i.e, those terrifying AR type guns, are used in
>> murders far
>> less often then other type of firearms. Less often, even,
>> then hands
>> and feet.
>>
>> But in spite of all evidence to the contrary you continue
>> to curse and
>> damn the AR type. Dementia? or Lies?
>
> Neither. First, as noted, the "firearm type undetermined"
> category was so large that your claims have little value.
> (When someone shoots a person and leaves, it's quite
> difficult to determine the length of the barrel. Isn't that
> obvious?)
>
> Second, although you won't admit it, all deaths are not
> equal. Society rightly considers mass shootings - like
> killing a couple dozen grade school kids - to be
> particularly heinous. Mass shootings happen with sickening
> regularity in the U.S., certainly far more often than in
> comparable developed nations. For the worst mass shootings,
> the AR is perhaps the top weapon of choice.
>
> That counts as a MAJOR societal disadvantage for the AR and
> its kin.
>
> To balance that major disadvantage, the AR offers the
> following practical advantages: "Dude, it's cool!" "It
> looks like Rambo's gun!" "It makes me FEEL like Rambo!"
> "I can put 20 rounds into a man-shaped target in ten
> seconds!" "I can buy all kinds of cool, deadly
> accessories!" "If Those Other People ever storm my suburban
> bungalow, I can take out a whole crowd of them!"
>
> Oh, and "Ah LIKE my gun!"
>
> Guys who want to pretend to be Rambo should join a _real_
> militia. The National Guard qualifies.
>

You project similar fantasies on pickup truck owners as a
class and you're mostly wrong in both cases. A few idiots
own bicycles. A few idiots own pickup trucks. A few idiots
own firearms. But they are (blissfully) not 'everyone' nor
widespread.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2022 8:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi
>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but
>>>>>> upthread
>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern
>>>>>> Republican
>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger
>>>>>> right wing
>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>
>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>
>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend
>>>> to be
>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any
>>>> one
>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>
>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>
>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>
>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with
>>>> poorly
>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>
>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>
>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>
>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the
>> voters, "Elect me
>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food
>> and housing
>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>
> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>

There's a difference between 'price' and 'cost'. You pay 55
cents for First Class postage. The _cost_ is something in
the $1.50 range.

One might say that Medicaid is 'free' but in fact it's
eating State budgets in big chunks:

https://www.kff.org/medicaid/state-indicator/total-medicaid-spending/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D

For California in particular 28% of the entire budget. And
growing.

Cost of health care in Thailand is not a few bhat per person.
--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2022 8:57 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi
>>>>>> <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas
>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people
>>>>>> commit crimes
>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required)
>>>>>> weapon. (:-)
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>
>>>>> No.
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding
>>>>> of 411 was done
>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of
>>>>> Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms
>>>>> found in his
>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes,
>>>>> had been legally
>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a
>>>>> 9mm handgun at
>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range
>>>>> in Holly
>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states,
>>>>> Georgia does not
>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>
>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic
>>>>> rifle and a 9mm
>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from
>>>>> Mateen's body,
>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally
>>>>> purchased the two
>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St.
>>>>> Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close
>>>>> legal loopholes
>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally
>>>>> unsound to
>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National
>>>>> Instant Criminal
>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber
>>>>> Walther P22
>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock
>>>>> 19 handgun."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>>>
>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old
>>>>> Lanza was old
>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun,
>>>>> but too young
>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been
>>>>> purchased legally
>>>>> by his mother."
>>>>>
>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>>>
>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the
>>>>> shooting from
>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on
>>>>> April 7, 2016.
>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely
>>>>> indicated that he
>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and
>>>> punitive to the
>>>> general population, are not effective against
>>>> psychopaths, jihadis and
>>>> the like.
>>>
>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada
>>> doubtlessly has
>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they
>>> have far, far
>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain,
>>> Ireland, Australia,
>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>>
>>
>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>>
>>
>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>> mentioned.
>
> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're
> right." But that went away as soon as I began reading your
> link.
>
> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was
> about "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed
> to concentrate on things like simple depression. Those are
> very different maladies or mental states. Your typical
> depressed individual can't get motivated to make the bed,
> let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>
> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are
> comparable to the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't
> they have America's gun violence problem?
>
> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S.
> problem isn't population insanity or some inherent evil in
> Americans.
>
> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just
> have crappy gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined
> each year because of them.
>

If the laws and policies of the nation were out of step with
the values of the population generally, they would be
changed. See also 18th & 21st Amendments, or the switch to
an all-volunteer military.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/8/2022 9:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:31:53 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:26:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>>>>> city.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago. And if my
>>>>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>>>>> too crazy. Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>>>>> operations. And him murdering people was not official
>>>>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>>>>> about them
>>>>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>>>>>> years? If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>>>>> chalk it up to random events. But if it happens
>>>>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>>>>> sure the strict
>>>>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>>>>> of people
>>>>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>>>>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>>>>> people shoot
>>>>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>>>>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>>>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>>>>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>>>>> nearly as often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>>>>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large numbers of
>>>>> legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>>>>
>>>> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle marketing
>>>> hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend your home," product
>>>> placement in countless NCIS TV shows, ludicrous fantasy posters of a
>>>> heavily muscled Trump brandishing one...
>>>>
>>>>> ... whose owners/operators
>>>>> are civil, responsible and not engaged in violence.
>>>>
>>>> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by saying "Only a
>>>> small percentage murder people." That's way beyond the liberal "Gold
>>>> medal for participating!" given to every kid in class.
>>>>
>>>> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault his teacher
>>>> this year!"
>>>>
>>>> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a minority
>>>> would explode them. But it would still be a really stupid idea.
>>>
>>> But you are just making things up. No gold medals for participating
>>> true... but no gold medals for not stealing cars, and no gold medal
>>> for not robbing banks, and on and on.
>>>
>>> I pointed out that bicycles had killed more people - some hundred
>>> times more, then the terrible "mass shootings" and you dismissed them
>>> although they were higher then the combat deaths in Vietnam which I
>>> remind you so terrified the youth of American that they fled the
>>> country.
>>>
>>> And you will leap into the fray, shouting "BUT bicycles have an
>>> advantage!" Yup, I agree, an advantage in killing people. Think of it,
>>> 100 times as many dead on bicycles as died in mass shootings.
>>>
>>> I think I'll let you keep those advantages. I don't want any part of
>>> them.
>>
>> Do you ride a bike? You have claimed to.
>>
>
> For about 25 years until my hip got so bad - I broke my pelvis (one of
> your fabled advantages of a bicycle I guess) and now I walk with a
> cane.
>
>> That indicates you judge the benefits of riding to be greater than the
>> detriments. And as I've indicated via many citations, you'd be right.
>>
>> So are you now arguing against your own behavior?? Really??
>
> Nope Frank. I rode a bicycle simply because I enjoyed riding it. Just
> as I ran in foot races because I enjoyed it. I can honestly say that I
> never sat down and added up the advantages and disadvantages of
> either. Or spending 20 years in the Air Force, or working in foreign
> countries. I just did as I damned pleased.
>
> And I believe that is why most people do things. Do you really think
> that people sit there counting advantages on their fingers - Eeny,
> meeny, miny, moe - Yes Siree Bob, that there one got all them
> advantages. Yup, I'll do that.
>

On 3/8/2022 10:15 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>>>>>> by his mother."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>>>>> the like.
>>>>
>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>>>
>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>>> mentioned.
>>
>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
>> that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
>>
>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
>> "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
>> things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
>> mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
>> make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>>
>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
>> the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
>> violence problem?
>>
>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
>> population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
>>
>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
>> gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
>
>
> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
>
> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
> struggling against the non-believers.
> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
>
> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.
>
> But if bad gun laws are really the cause of the levels of crime in the
> U.S. how do you explain the fact that some states, Vermont comes to
> mind here, have very, very lax, or non existent, gun laws and a very
> low level of gun crime. The "upper" New England States, New Hampshire,
> Vermont and Maine have gun ownership of 41.10%, 50.5% and 46.80% and a
> gun homicide rate of 0.6/100,000, 1.3 and 1.2. And these states are
> not unique. Oregon has gun ownership of 50,8% and a firearm homicide
> rate of 0.8.
>
> But Louisiana has a gun ownership rate of 53.1% and a firearm homicide
> rate of 8.1. roughly 3% more guns then Vermont and Oregon and as much
> as 10 times the gun crime.
>
> Your arguments don't seem to reflect realism.
>
> But that is the nice thing about bigotry isn't it. One doesn't have to
> mess about with logic, data or facts. Just seize onto any old idea and
> you are set for life.
>

I was the one who mentioned 'jihadis' after Mr Krygowski
added the Miami night club massacre. That fake story about
homosexuality was smokescreen over his religious act of
piety to 'kill the infidels'.

And you're right that the expression 'jihad' which we once
commonly understood as 'struggle' has changed. At one time
it meant more usually internal moral or self-discipline
struggle but is now almost always used for the religiously
motivated murder of innocents.

--
Andrew Muzi
<www.yellowjersey.org/>
Open every day since 1 April, 1971

On 3/9/2022 3:18 AM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, March 8, 2022 at 10:15:24 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>>>>>>> by his mother."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>>>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>>>>>> the like.
>>>>>
>>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>>>>
>>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>>>> mentioned.
>>>
>>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
>>> that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
>>>
>>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
>>> "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
>>> things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
>>> mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
>>> make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>>>
>>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
>>> the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
>>> violence problem?
>>>
>>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
>>> population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
>>>
>>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
>>> gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
>> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
>> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
>>
>> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
>> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
>> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
>> struggling against the non-believers.
>> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
>> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
>>
>> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.
>
> I'm sure you already know this John, but just in case I will spell it out. In the USA, a "Jihadi" or "Jihadist" or whatever the proper term is, means an Arab Muslim brown skinned black haired terrorist who murders white Caucasian Christians. That is the definition. Just like "Coke" means any and all carbonated soft drinks. Doesn't matter if its officially a Coca Cola product or a Pepsi Cola or a Mountain Dew or a 7-Up. Its all Coke. All Jihadis are Arab Muslim terrorists.
>
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>>
>> But if bad gun laws are really the cause of the levels of crime in the
>> U.S. how do you explain the fact that some states, Vermont comes to
>> mind here, have very, very lax, or non existent, gun laws and a very
>> low level of gun crime. The "upper" New England States, New Hampshire,
>> Vermont and Maine have gun ownership of 41.10%, 50.5% and 46.80% and a
>> gun homicide rate of 0.6/100,000, 1.3 and 1.2. And these states are
>> not unique. Oregon has gun ownership of 50,8% and a firearm homicide
>> rate of 0.8.
>>
>> But Louisiana has a gun ownership rate of 53.1% and a firearm homicide
>> rate of 8.1. roughly 3% more guns then Vermont and Oregon and as much
>> as 10 times the gun crime.
>>
>> Your arguments don't seem to reflect realism.
>
> Andy in a prior post mentioned having different laws for different areas of the USA. He said rural Wisconsin needs different laws than Milwaukee I believe. And that may be true. But for a country as diverse as the USA, with free travel between all regions, we need one law and rule for everywhere. So doesn't it make sense to implement a law that results in the best outcome, least deaths, for all of USA combined? An analogy: Speeding laws. Some people are able to drive 100 mph and be safe. Others can easily handle 120 mph. Yet most road highways in the USA have 55 or 65 or so speed limits. For the collective good of everyone, we decided to "harm" the fast drivers.
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>>
>> But that is the nice thing about bigotry isn't it. One doesn't have to
>> mess about with logic, data or facts. Just seize onto any old idea and
>> you are set for life.
>> --
>> Cheers,
>>
>> John B.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2022 at 5:40:18 AM UTC-8, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> > On 3/8/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:09:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>
> >>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered
> >>> access to rapid
> >>> fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person must
> >>> pull the trigger
> >>> to shoot someone; but in other nations with more rational
> >>> policies,
> >>> people don't shoot people nearly as often.
> >>>
> >>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
> >>> lack of rapid
> >>> fire arms. That's because things like ARs have no
> >>> practical advantages
> >>> for civilians.
> >>
> >>
> >> But Frank, as I and Andrew have both told you, and given
> >> reference,
> >> rifles, i.e, those terrifying AR type guns, are used in
> >> murders far
> >> less often then other type of firearms. Less often, even,
> >> then hands
> >> and feet.
> >>
> >> But in spite of all evidence to the contrary you continue
> >> to curse and
> >> damn the AR type. Dementia? or Lies?
> >
> > Neither. First, as noted, the "firearm type undetermined"
> > category was so large that your claims have little value.
> > (When someone shoots a person and leaves, it's quite
> > difficult to determine the length of the barrel. Isn't that
> > obvious?)
> >
> > Second, although you won't admit it, all deaths are not
> > equal. Society rightly considers mass shootings - like
> > killing a couple dozen grade school kids - to be
> > particularly heinous. Mass shootings happen with sickening
> > regularity in the U.S., certainly far more often than in
> > comparable developed nations. For the worst mass shootings,
> > the AR is perhaps the top weapon of choice.
> >
> > That counts as a MAJOR societal disadvantage for the AR and
> > its kin.
> >
> > To balance that major disadvantage, the AR offers the
> > following practical advantages: "Dude, it's cool!" "It
> > looks like Rambo's gun!" "It makes me FEEL like Rambo!"
> > "I can put 20 rounds into a man-shaped target in ten
> > seconds!" "I can buy all kinds of cool, deadly
> > accessories!" "If Those Other People ever storm my suburban
> > bungalow, I can take out a whole crowd of them!"
> >
> > Oh, and "Ah LIKE my gun!"
> >
> > Guys who want to pretend to be Rambo should join a _real_
> > militia. The National Guard qualifies.
> >
> You project similar fantasies on pickup truck owners as a
> class and you're mostly wrong in both cases. A few idiots
> own bicycles. A few idiots own pickup trucks. A few idiots
> own firearms. But they are (blissfully) not 'everyone' nor
> widespread.

These are little more than the fears of a man who observes death stalking him and needs something or someone to blame for his impending doom. After he dies he shall see through the eyes of God and know what he has been falsely claiming. I suspect this is little more than the fear that he has never achieved anything in his own life that he could respect. I should suspect he knows he never converted a single soul to communism.

On Friday, March 4, 2022 at 5:44:39 PM UTC-8, John B. wrote:
> On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 18:56:37 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>
> >On 3/4/2022 6:42 PM, John B. wrote:
> >> On Fri, 04 Mar 2022 08:16:44 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On 3/3/2022 11:30 PM, russell...@yahoo.com wrote:
> >>>> On Thursday, March 3, 2022 at 7:31:29 PM UTC-6, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>> On 3/3/2022 6:36 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>> On Thu, 3 Mar 2022 13:53:32 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>>> On 3/2/2022 8:45 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>> On Wed, 2 Mar 2022 19:16:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>> On 3/2/2022 10:10 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 8:40 PM, John B. wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, 1 Mar 2022 19:40:29 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> >>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 4:34 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 2:52 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 3:44 PM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 1:40 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 11:47 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/1/2022 10:04 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When you explain to me _why_ you think Canadians
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> are ...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> inherently? genetically? ... more civilized than
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> you'll have a point.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> BTW, your explanation should also apply to Brits,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Irish,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> French, Swedes and so many other countries that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> have far
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fewer gun deaths than the U.S. (Since you brought
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> up the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> subject, I'll rely on you to look up their rates of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> rape and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> other violent crimes.)
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Until you come up with a better explanation, I'm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> going to
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> assume that differences in gun death rates have a lot
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> with their national policies, as implemented by their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> laws,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> etc.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Briefly, my view is that national policies make a big
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> difference in how people behave.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Your view is, apparently, "Americans are just bad."
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to restate your view if it's different. And
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> don't
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> change the subject, John. This is what we are talking
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> about
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> _now_.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When Andrew Cuomo was Mr Cinton's HUD Secretary, he
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> announced a firearm buyback program for residents of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> public housing. Reporter asked if firearms made public
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> housing dangerous or if residents felt a need to arm
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> themselves for  protection because their
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> hallways and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> neighborhoods had become more dangerous.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which doesn't address John's implication that
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Americans are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> just fundamentally evil. I guess that's his way of
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> saying
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> that laws and policies make no difference.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> But I wonder what those public housing residents are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> afraid
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of? Is it punks with slingshots? Or punks with some
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> different weaponry?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do people in violent neighborhoods fear? Knives,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> beatings, assaults of various severity and yes firearms.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Get rid of firearms and you have the same vicious people
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> then add in an incitement to tyranny of an unarmed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> population.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For an elderly woman with some guy coming through her
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> bedroom window, a knife or club is of limited utility.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> When seconds matter, 911 is just twenty minutes away.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> As usual, I wonder about other countries. Do they not have
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the problems you describe to the degree Americans do? If
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they don't, why not? Is it genetics? Or is it laws and
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> policies?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> If they do have the problems, how do they manage them
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> without every elderly woman owning an AR rifle or rapid
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> fire
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> handgun?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> What do you mean by 'rapid fire' ? Typical home defense
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> pistols are
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> revolvers and striker type 9mm (or .380 /.40). Those all
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> fire at the
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> same speed[1].
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> I'll bet you can't find even one police or news report
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the past year
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> in USA where a full-auto pistol was used for home
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> self-defense.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I did not say "full auto." And I'd say even nine rounds
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> at two rounds
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> per second qualifies as "rapid fire." Hunters don't do
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> that. Target
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> shooters do that only if they're pretending to be in combat..
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> OTOH which of these scenarios would you prefer for your
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> relative or
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> yourself?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> A)Â This common crime?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.chicagotribune.com/news/breaking/ct-wordle-mother-saved-lincolnwood-20220211-ecz5istdfrhvzdin4kibdwyrmi-story.html
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> B) or more like this?
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.foxnews.com/us/elderly-man-shoots-kills-half-naked-home-intruder-who-assaulted-his-wife
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> "Common crime"?? Talk about a "Danger! Danger!" statement!
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Somehow, the universe I live in is not nearly so scary,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> at least to me
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> and mine.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> But yet again: Why is it necessary for each U.S.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> household to be armed
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> for protection? Why is it not necessary in Canada,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Britain, Norway,
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> Portugal...
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> {1} in the real world.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> In TeeVee world, firearms are magic lead-spraying
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> devices which always
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> hit the intended target such as the bad guy's wrist when
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wielded by good
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> guy. Bad guy firearms also spray huge quantities just
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> over good guy's
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> head with magic sound effects.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I'm well aware of that silly glorification of gun culture.
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>> Well, I read that from 1949 to 2021 there were some 512
> >>>>>>>>>>>> homicides in
> >>>>>>>>>>>> mass shootings and from 1949 until 2018 there were 51,403
> >>>>>>>>>>>> killed on
> >>>>>>>>>>>> bicycles.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> Benefits vs. detriments, John. Benefits vs. detriments. I
> >>>>>>>>>>> can list the benefits of bicycling (again!) if necessary.
> >>>>>>>>>>> They've repeatedly been shown to tremendously outweigh the
> >>>>>>>>>>> detriments.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> What are the practical benefits of letting any macho nutcase
> >>>>>>>>>>> buy things like AR rifles? I don't believe you've ever
> >>>>>>>>>>> answered that question!
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>> You also haven't answered the closely related question of
> >>>>>>>>>>> how you manage to get by without owning one. ISTM that's
> >>>>>>>>>>> proof these guns are far from essential.
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>>> For a roughly similar price range and a roughly similar installed base
> >>>>>>>>>> of both products ( bicycles and firearms) your personal bias seems at
> >>>>>>>>>> least out of step with general USA opinion. Which is fine, but you're
> >>>>>>>>>> not the arbiter and a large number of people see the problem differently.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>> That statement avoided answering the question. What are the practical
> >>>>>>>>> benefits of letting any macho nutcase by things like AR rifles? After
> >>>>>>>>> all, we can count the detriments, starting with body counts.
> >>>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Yup, what is the benefit???
> >>>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> For a TV?
> >>>>>>>> For living room furniture?
> >>>>>>>> For a bed?
> >>>>>>>> For a pet dog?
> >>>>>>>> For a bottle of beer
> >>>>>>>> or a glass of whiskey
> >>>>>>>> Or even a wife
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> Wow - from the guy who accused ME of changing the subject!
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> We're not talking about those things, John. And none of those have the
> >>>>>>> disadvantage of abetting mass murder of schoolkids.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> Frank... you stated above, "What are the practical
> >>>>>> benefits" in fact you mentioned it at least twice in this series of
> >>>>>> posts.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> I'm simply point out that your claim to "benefits" is simply that,
> >>>>>> another argument and that "benefits" in the U.S. apply largely to
> >>>>>> things that are really not required. "Luxuries" one might say.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>>> But Frank, do tell us about the "benefits" of the $30 hand bags.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> I'm with you generally but it seems to have been a long
> >>>>> while since you were buying 'girlfriend food' for an
> >>>>> American woman. A '$30 handbag' is something one finds at a
> >>>>> thrift store. A '$30 handbag' is not suitable as a gift.
> >>>>>
> >>>>
> >>>> I'm going to go way out on a limb and say you are WRONG Andy. Wrong about $30 handbags at thrift stores. I have been in thrift stores. Salvation Army store. Never looked at the handbag section of course. But $30 for a handbag at a thrift store seems outrageously expensive. Crazy expensive. Now belts I do look at in thrift stores. Men's belts. I buy them for a $1 in the thrift store. Great, great belts. Almost like brand new. I have 5 or 6 in reserve now. Belts that probably cost $20 or $30 new. But only $1 at the thrift store. Yeah!!! I am going to bet women's handbags are just like men's belts at the thrift store. They get lots of them and sell them for a buck or two to get rid of them fast. No $30 handbags at the thrift store.
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>
> >>>>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=genuine+new+fendi+bag&t=h_&ia=web
> >>>>>
> >>>>> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=genuine+new+prada+handbag&t=h_&ia=web
> >>>
> >>> I'm with Ms Slocumb on this. No man in his right mind would
> >>> give a woman a $30 handbag.
> >>
> >>
> >> The difference between the U.S. and Thailand.
> >>
> >> I just told my wife what you said - I had to explain the "Ms" - and
> >> she sort of "got her back up" as the saying goes, and rather
> >> indignantly said, (I'm translating here) "What's this "Ms"? I'm a
> >> married woman! Do you want people to think I'm just shacked up with
> >> you?
> >> (:-)
> >>
> >
> >Please convey my apology, no offense intended.

On 3/8/2022 10:02 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:31:53 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 8:02 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 14:26:52 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 12:37 PM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:09 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 4:23 AM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 22:31:47 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>> "russellseaton1@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>> <ritzannaseaton@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 8:23:53 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 15:47:26 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 4:58:25 PM UTC-6, John B.
>>>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, 7 Mar 2022 11:17:12 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>>>>>>>>>> <frkr...@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> On 3/6/2022 10:52 PM, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, 6 Mar 2022 19:21:13 -0800 (PST),
>>>>>>>>>>>>> "russell...@yahoo.com"
>>>>>>>>>>>>> <ritzann...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Unlike women, girls, whiskey, alcohol, or bicycles,
>>>>>>>>>>>>>> guns are used to kill people. ...
>>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>> Yup... and knives are used in mass killings...
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Numbers, please? Will you tell us the body count for
>>>>>>>>>>>> "mass killings" by
>>>>>>>>>>>> knife wielders in the U.S., compared to those
>>>>>>>>>>>> perpetrated by those
>>>>>>>>>>>> shooting guns?
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Feel free to give your own definition of a "mass
>>>>>>>>>>>> killing," but one
>>>>>>>>>>>> accepted definition (U.S. Dept. of Justice) is
>>>>>>>>>>>> killing three or more
>>>>>>>>>>>> people in close proximity and within a short time
>>>>>>>>>>>> period.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Compare with these:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Well,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019/08/mass-murder-without-guns/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> https://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/another-california-mass-murder-knife-rampage-kills-4-wounds-2/
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Regarding your second link, the knife, machete killer
>>>>>>>>>> of 4 people in southern California. He killed these
>>>>>>>>>> people at a half dozen or so different locations over
>>>>>>>>>> several hours. Not your typical mass killing to be
>>>>>>>>>> sure. He also drove a silver Mercedes. This occurred a
>>>>>>>>>> day or so after an El Paso Texas gunman killed 22 at a
>>>>>>>>>> WalMart. With guns. And a killer in Dayton Ohio shot to
>>>>>>>>>> death 9 people before police shot him to death.
>>>>>>>>> Well, why penalize a bloke that works hard. Running up
>>>>>>>>> and down the
>>>>>>>>> street hacking and slashing is pretty strenuous work,
>>>>>>>>> you know.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> But in a more serious vein which is preferable? To get hit,
>>>>>>>>> unexpectedly, and fall down or to have to watch some
>>>>>>>>> maniac running
>>>>>>>>> down the street hacking and slashing and you know that
>>>>>>>>> you can't out
>>>>>>>>> run him?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> And yes we have "mass shootings here. An Army Sergeant
>>>>>>>>> "went mad" and
>>>>>>>>> shot a number of people in Korat, Thailand's second (I
>>>>>>>>> think) largest
>>>>>>>>> city.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Yes you told us about him a little while ago.  And if my
>>>>>>>> memory is correct, it may not be of course, we talked
>>>>>>>> about since this guy was an official Army sergeant, him
>>>>>>>> taking an official M16 military rifle off base was not
>>>>>>>> too crazy.  Of course it was illegal since military guns
>>>>>>>> can only be taken off base for official military
>>>>>>>> operations.  And him murdering people was not official
>>>>>>>> military protocol.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> In fact I think I mentioned this some time ago to
>>>>>>>>> illustrate the
>>>>>>>>> difference in attitudes between here and there. Had this
>>>>>>>>> happened in
>>>>>>>>> the U.S. Frank would have been hollering and screaming
>>>>>>>>> about them
>>>>>>>>> there deadly army guns". Here people asked, "What was
>>>>>>>>> the matter with
>>>>>>>>> Him"?
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> In Thailand does this mass murdering by an Army sergeant
>>>>>>>> happen once or twice every single year for the past 20-30
>>>>>>>> years?  If it happens once, as in your example, then
>>>>>>>> chalk it up to random events.  But if it happens
>>>>>>>> regularly as in the USA, then maybe something needs to be
>>>>>>>> studied and a solution found.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nope. Not to say that we don't have shootings. I'm not
>>>>>>> sure the strict
>>>>>>> U.S. definition of "mass shootings" but we do have cases
>>>>>>> of people
>>>>>>> shooting a whole family.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Russell's point is good: The numbers make a difference.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You've given ONE example of a mass shooting in Thailand. As
>>>>>> Andrew has noted, in the U.S. "That's Wednesday."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> See
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_mass_shootings_in_the_United_States
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> As somebody said years ago, "guns don't shoot people,
>>>>>>> people shoot
>>>>>>> people". So why blame guns?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered access
>>>>>> to rapid fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person
>>>>>> must pull the trigger to shoot someone; but in other nations
>>>>>> with more rational policies, people don't shoot people
>>>>>> nearly as often.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>>>> lack of rapid fire arms. That's because things like ARs have
>>>>>> no practical advantages for civilians.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Except you have no explanation for the staggeringly large numbers of
>>>>> legally owned weapons (more than humans in USA)...
>>>>
>>>> My explanation would be fashion driven by decades of subtle marketing
>>>> hype. Fear mongering like "You may have to defend your home," product
>>>> placement in countless NCIS TV shows, ludicrous fantasy posters of a
>>>> heavily muscled Trump brandishing one...
>>>>
>>>>> ... whose owners/operators
>>>>> are civil, responsible and not engaged in violence.
>>>>
>>>> I don't want to give bonus points to the gun culture by saying "Only a
>>>> small percentage murder people." That's way beyond the liberal "Gold
>>>> medal for participating!" given to every kid in class.
>>>>
>>>> "And Johnny gets a special trophy because he didn't assault his teacher
>>>> this year!"
>>>>
>>>> If we passed out a hand grenade to every household, only a minority
>>>> would explode them. But it would still be a really stupid idea.
>>>
>>> But you are just making things up. No gold medals for participating
>>> true... but no gold medals for not stealing cars, and no gold medal
>>> for not robbing banks, and on and on.
>>>
>>> I pointed out that bicycles had killed more people - some hundred
>>> times more, then the terrible "mass shootings" and you dismissed them
>>> although they were higher then the combat deaths in Vietnam which I
>>> remind you so terrified the youth of American that they fled the
>>> country.
>>>
>>> And you will leap into the fray, shouting "BUT bicycles have an
>>> advantage!" Yup, I agree, an advantage in killing people. Think of it,
>>> 100 times as many dead on bicycles as died in mass shootings.
>>>
>>> I think I'll let you keep those advantages. I don't want any part of
>>> them.
>>
>> Do you ride a bike? You have claimed to.
>>
>
> For about 25 years until my hip got so bad - I broke my pelvis (one of
> your fabled advantages of a bicycle I guess) and now I walk with a
> cane.
>
>> That indicates you judge the benefits of riding to be greater than the
>> detriments. And as I've indicated via many citations, you'd be right.
>>
>> So are you now arguing against your own behavior?? Really??
>
> Nope Frank. I rode a bicycle simply because I enjoyed riding it. Just
> as I ran in foot races because I enjoyed it. I can honestly say that I
> never sat down and added up the advantages and disadvantages of
> either. Or spending 20 years in the Air Force, or working in foreign
> countries. I just did as I damned pleased.
>
> And I believe that is why most people do things. Do you really think
> that people sit there counting advantages on their fingers - Eeny,
> meeny, miny, moe - Yes Siree Bob, that there one got all them
> advantages. Yup, I'll do that.

On 3/9/2022 8:37 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 8:31 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>
>> Do you ride a bike? You have claimed to.
>>
>> That indicates you judge the benefits of riding to be
>> greater than the detriments. And as I've indicated via many
>> citations, you'd be right.
>>
>> So are you now arguing against your own behavior??  Really??
>>
>
> Benefit for whom? How much benefit? And in Milton Friedman's pithy and
> poignant query, "Who Decides?"
>
> https://www.alibris.com/Free-to-Choose-Milton-Friedman/book/2450309?matches=44
>
> As with work trucks, people can look at the same facts and draw
> radically different conclusions.

Of course people can draw different conclusions. But that does NOT mean
all conclusions are equally valid! As harsh as it might sound, some
people's decisions are simply _wrong_.

And going beyond that simple fact:

Millennia ago, societies decided that there were "benefits" an
individual might choose for himself that were "detriments" for society
as a whole. Societies decided many of those should be restricted by law.
For one example, that's why it's illegal to break into bike shops and
steal all the bikes.

So "benefits vs. detriments" applies not only to individuals. Society as
a whole should be a consideration.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 10:16 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:46:18 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas where
>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but upthread
>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern Republican
>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger right wing
>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>
>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend to be
>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any one
>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>
>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with poorly
>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>
>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>
>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>
>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the voters, "Elect me
>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food and housing
>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>
>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>
> Here? For a citizen, 30 baht a visit, about 91 cents U.S., and free
> for those over 60.
>
> But what are you trying to prove? That Social Security, etc., are not
> socialistic services as I stated?
>
> That "socialism is so appealing to the American Public"?
>
> That Thailand provides socialistic services for their citizens?
>
> Or what?

I'm indicating (or emphasizing) that what you said is true in most
places. And I'm hinting that it's often a net benefit for the citizenry
and the society.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/9/2022 8:48 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 8:46 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 8:23 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2022 17:20:47 -0600, AMuzi
>>> <am@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 3:58 PM, sms wrote:
>>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:42 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:37 AM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>>>>> On 3/8/2022 10:38 AM, Tom Kunich wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I can't get my mind around the pure stupidity of people
>>>>>>>> who do not understand that the largest numbers of deaths
>>>>>>>> and mostly of blacks are in entirely Democrat areas
>>>>>>>> where
>>>>>>>> they believe that "guns bad" and "gun control good".
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Bullshit. Tom, I'm sure you can't _remember_, but
>>>>>>> upthread
>>>>>>> is a link to gun death rates per capita. Southern
>>>>>>> Republican
>>>>>>> states do worse than most Democratic states.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Read the discussion again. Drop your hair-trigger
>>>>>>> right wing
>>>>>>> prejudices for a bit and try to understand real data.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The bulk of firearms murders in the south are concentrated
>>>>>> in New Orleans, Atlanta, Miami etc; same phenomenon as
>>>>>> elsewhere in USA.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Which is why I countered the call for a national program
>>>>>> or policy earlier with a call for subsidiarity instead.
>>>>>> The problems of Milwaukee are not the problems of the
>>>>>> surrounding high density suburban counties, under the same
>>>>>> statutes and same governor.
>>>>>
>>>>> While Frank is correct that gun deaths per capita tend
>>>>> to be
>>>>> higher in red states, the FBI cautions against using any
>>>>> one
>>>>> demographic marker.
>>>>>
>>>>> What contributes to political party preference are
>>>>> underlying factors that also lead to higher crime rates,
>>>>> including poverty and low education levels. Red states tend
>>>>> to be poorer and have lower education levels.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you look at the election results in the last election of
>>>>> the 15 states with the highest education levels, only 1,
>>>>> Utah, went for Trump.
>>>>>
>>>>> As Trump stated when he won in 2016: “We won with
>>>>> poorly
>>>>> educated. I love the poorly educated.�
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Nice topic drift there.
>>>>
>>>> Milwaukee administrations have been Socialist Party or
>>>> Democrat overwhelmingly for over 100 years. Statewide,
>>>> Wisconsin is a switch hitter. No more reliable Democrat
>>>> party stronghold than Chicago. Illinois statewide has
>>>> embraced competent and incompetent from both major parties.
>>>
>>> But socialism is so appealing to the American Public.
>>>
>>> What is a surer way to get elected then to tell the
>>> voters, "Elect me
>>> and I'll give you...". You know, things like Social Security,
>>> Unemployment, Medicaid (or whatever they call it), food
>>> and housing
>>> assistance, Aid to Unwed Mothers, and on and on.
>>
>> What does health care cost in Thailand? Refresh our memory.
>>
>
> There's a difference between 'price' and 'cost'.  You pay 55 cents for
> First Class postage. The _cost_ is something in the $1.50 range.
>
> One might say that Medicaid is 'free' but in fact it's eating State
> budgets in big chunks:
>
> https://www.kff.org/medicaid/state-indicator/total-medicaid-spending/?currentTimeframe=0&sortModel=%7B%22colId%22:%22Location%22,%22sort%22:%22asc%22%7D
>
>
> For California in particular 28% of the entire budget. And growing.
>
> Cost of health care in Thailand is not a few bhat per person.

Agreed on all counts.

However, I've seen dozens of evaluations of American health care _costs_
vs. those of other countries. Not one that I've seen has failed to mark
the U.S. system as hugely expensive, as well as less effective.

Honestly, I think the arguments in favor of U.S. health care policy are
far, far weaker than those in favor of U.S. gun policy. And that's
saying something!

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/9/2022 8:40 AM, AMuzi wrote:
> On 3/8/2022 8:44 PM, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>> On 3/8/2022 6:17 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:09:24 -0500, Frank Krygowski wrote:
>>>
>>>> We're blaming _policies_ that allow almost unfettered
>>>> access to rapid
>>>> fire weapons optimized for combat. Yes, a person must
>>>> pull the trigger
>>>> to shoot someone; but in other nations with more rational
>>>> policies,
>>>> people don't shoot people nearly as often.
>>>>
>>>> And their daily lives are not negatively impacted by the
>>>> lack of rapid
>>>> fire arms. That's because things like ARs have no
>>>> practical advantages
>>>> for civilians.
>>>
>>>
>>> But Frank, as I and Andrew have both told you, and given
>>> reference,
>>> rifles, i.e, those terrifying AR type guns, are used in
>>> murders far
>>> less often then other type of firearms. Less often, even,
>>> then hands
>>> and feet.
>>>
>>> But in spite of all evidence to the contrary you continue
>>> to curse and
>>> damn the AR type. Dementia?  or Lies?
>>
>> Neither. First, as noted, the "firearm type undetermined"
>> category was so large that your claims have little value.
>> (When someone shoots a person and leaves, it's quite
>> difficult to determine the length of the barrel. Isn't that
>> obvious?)
>>
>> Second, although you won't admit it, all deaths are not
>> equal. Society rightly considers mass shootings - like
>> killing a couple dozen grade school kids - to be
>> particularly heinous. Mass shootings happen with sickening
>> regularity in the U.S., certainly far more often than in
>> comparable developed nations. For the worst mass shootings,
>> the AR is perhaps the top weapon of choice.
>>
>> That counts as a MAJOR societal disadvantage for the AR and
>> its kin.
>>
>> To balance that major disadvantage, the AR offers the
>> following practical advantages:  "Dude, it's cool!"  "It
>> looks like Rambo's gun!"   "It makes me FEEL like Rambo!"
>> "I can put 20 rounds into a man-shaped target in ten
>> seconds!"  "I can buy all kinds of cool, deadly
>> accessories!"  "If Those Other People ever storm my suburban
>> bungalow, I can take out a whole crowd of them!"
>>
>> Oh, and "Ah LIKE my gun!"
>>
>> Guys who want to pretend to be Rambo should join a _real_
>> militia. The National Guard qualifies.
>>
>
> You project similar fantasies on pickup truck owners as a class and
> you're mostly wrong in both cases.  A few idiots own bicycles. A few
> idiots own pickup trucks. A few idiots own firearms. But they are
> (blissfully) not 'everyone' nor widespread.

Please try to remember I don't attribute those motives to all pickup
drivers. Two of my best friends and one extended family member currently
own pickups, and need and use them for their capabilities. I make no
complaints about pickups hauling hay bales, or loaded with construction
equipment, machinery, huge tool boxes etc.

A squeaky clean fashionable 4x4 used to haul a testosterone-deficient
suburban guy to his insurance company desk job does get some disapproval
for me. Why? Because they impose unneeded externalities on the public.
They are much more deadly for pedestrians and cyclists, especially
little kids who can actually be invisible around them, hidden beneath
the huge hoods. And when there is an impact, it's much more deadly than
a normal sedan, by delivering a whole body bash, then running over the
body. (Car impacts tend to hit the lower body then flip the person onto
the hood.) They also block vision for other drivers on the road or in
parking lots. they tend to be noisier, etc.

The ones I really dislike are the dudes who buy a tall pickup, jack it
up a foot or more, install oversized and over-width off road tires,
light bars, loud exhausts, chrome everything, in-your-face decals, then
tailgate stupidly with all lights blazing. Those are the twerps who
engage in "rolling coal" or "ICEing" an EV charging station.
https://electrek.co/2019/01/01/tesla-pickup-truck-drivers-supercharger-protest/

Those guys are assholes. I hope you're not defending them.

--
- Frank Krygowski

On 3/8/2022 11:15 PM, John B. wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 21:57:55 -0500, Frank Krygowski
> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>
>> On 3/8/2022 6:06 PM, John B. wrote:
>>> On Tue, 8 Mar 2022 11:34:26 -0500, Frank Krygowski
>>> <frkrygow@sbcglobal.net> wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 3/8/2022 9:24 AM, AMuzi wrote:
>>>>> On 3/7/2022 11:58 PM, russellseaton1@yahoo.com wrote:
>>>>>> On Monday, March 7, 2022 at 7:02:44 PM UTC-6, John B. wrote:
>>>>>>> On Mon, 07 Mar 2022 08:14:53 -0600, AMuzi <a...@yellowjersey.org> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Stolen weapons used in crime are more common in areas where
>>>>>>>> legal ownership is most restricted:
>>>>>>>> https://cwbchicago.com/
>>>>>>> I would guess that a rather limited number of people commit crimes
>>>>>>> with a legally procured and licensed (where required) weapon. (:-)
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> John B.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> No.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017_Las_Vegas_shooting
>>>>>> The Las Vegas murder of 60 concert goers and wounding of 411 was done
>>>>>> with legally purchased guns and ammunition.
>>>>>> "During the subsequent investigation, the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
>>>>>> Firearms and Explosives determined that the firearms found in his
>>>>>> hotel room, along with more guns found in his homes, had been legally
>>>>>> purchased in Nevada, California, Texas, and Utah."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2021_Atlanta_spa_shootings
>>>>>> "The suspect, Robert Aaron Long, legally purchased a 9mm handgun at
>>>>>> Big Woods Goods, a firearms store and indoor gun range in Holly
>>>>>> Springs, hours before the shooting. Like most states, Georgia does not
>>>>>> have a waiting period to buy a gun."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orlando_nightclub_shooting#Weapons
>>>>>> "Federal officials said a SIG Sauer MCX semi-automatic rifle and a 9mm
>>>>>> Glock 17 semi-automatic pistol were recovered from Mateen's body,
>>>>>> along with additional rounds. Mateen had legally purchased the two
>>>>>> guns used in the shooting from a shop in Port St. Lucie: the SIG Sauer
>>>>>> MCX rifle on June 4 and the Glock 17 pistol on June 5."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Virginia_Tech_shooting
>>>>>> "The shooting prompted the state of Virginia to close legal loopholes
>>>>>> that had allowed individuals adjudicated as mentally unsound to
>>>>>> purchase handguns without detection by the National Instant Criminal
>>>>>> Background Check System (NICS)."
>>>>>> "Cho used two pistols during the attacks: a .22-caliber Walther P22
>>>>>> semi-automatic handgun and a 9 mm semi-automatic Glock 19 handgun."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sandy_Hook_Elementary_School_shooting
>>>>>> "Under Connecticut law at the time, the 20-year-old Lanza was old
>>>>>> enough to carry a long gun, such as a rifle or shotgun, but too young
>>>>>> to own or carry handguns. The guns he used had been purchased legally
>>>>>> by his mother."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutherland_Springs_church_shooting
>>>>>> "Kelley purchased the semi-automatic rifle used in the shooting from
>>>>>> an Academy Sports + Outdoors store in San Antonio on April 7, 2016.
>>>>>> He filled out the required ATF Form 4473 and falsely indicated that he
>>>>>> did not have a disqualifying criminal history."
>>>>>> In this one instance, the guns were purchased illegally.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> So we can agree that laws, no matter how restrictive and punitive to the
>>>>> general population, are not effective against psychopaths, jihadis and
>>>>> the like.
>>>>
>>>> No, we cannot! As mentioned previously in detail, Canada doubtlessly has
>>>> a psychopath/jihadi density similar to the U.S. But they have far, far
>>>> fewer gun deaths. The same can be said for Britain, Ireland, Australia,
>>>> France, Germany, etc. etc.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Nope. Wrong again Tommy, err Franky.
>>> https://www.insidermonkey.com/blog/16-countries-with-the-highest-mental-illness-rates-in-the-world-649757/?singlepage=1
>>>
>>> The U.S. seems to be #3 in the world while Canada isn't even
>>> mentioned.
>>
>> Nice try, John! You had me almost ready to say "OK, you're right." But
>> that went away as soon as I began reading your link.
>>
>> Two points: First, my statement which echoed Andrew's was about
>> "psychopaths" and "jihadis." The link you gave seemed to concentrate on
>> things like simple depression. Those are very different maladies or
>> mental states. Your typical depressed individual can't get motivated to
>> make the bed, let alone acquire arms and commit an act of terrorism.
>>
>> Second, if you think Switzerland, France, Germany etc. are comparable to
>> the U.S. in mental problems, then why don't they have America's gun
>> violence problem?
>>
>> The obvious answer is what I've been saying: The U.S. problem isn't
>> population insanity or some inherent evil in Americans.
>>
>> National policies and laws DO make a big difference. We just have crappy
>> gun laws, and many thousands of lives are ruined each year because of them.
>
>
> Gee Frank, I do believe that you have "gone right round the bend" as
> the saying goes. Jihads are gun criminals?
>
> And here I had always understood that Jihads were the extensively
> religious people. The word "jihad", in Arabic, simply means to strive
> or struggle and is generally used in the sense of striving or
> struggling against the non-believers.
> I might add that I spent many years in Indonesia the largest
> (population wise) Islamic country in the world.
>
> And now you are telling me that they are just gun criminals.

John, if you can't keep track of the debate, you're not worth debating!

It wasn't me who introduced "psychopaths and jihadis." It was Andrew.
And I never mentioned Islam at all. My point was just that the U.S.
population is similar to Canada's.

YOU attempted to support Andrew's point (rather incompetently) with data
on depression instead of "psychopaths and jihadis."

Now you're saying _I_ claimed jihadis are gun criminals? Sheesh. As I've
had to say to Tom: Take notes!

> But if bad gun laws are really the cause of the levels of crime in the
> U.S. how do you explain the fact that some states, Vermont comes to
> mind here, have very, very lax, or non existent, gun laws and a very
> low level of gun crime. The "upper" New England States, New Hampshire,
> Vermont and Maine have gun ownership of 41.10%, 50.5% and 46.80% and a
> gun homicide rate of 0.6/100,000, 1.3 and 1.2. And these states are
> not unique. Oregon has gun ownership of 50,8% and a firearm homicide
> rate of 0.8.
>
> But Louisiana has a gun ownership rate of 53.1% and a firearm homicide
> rate of 8.1. roughly 3% more guns then Vermont and Oregon and as much
> as 10 times the gun crime.
>
> Your arguments don't seem to reflect realism.

You're retreating into oversimplification. Read back as far as you like.
You'll never find me claiming that _only_ gun laws have an effect. More
specifically, within the U.S., there are cultural differences,
demographic differences, differences in economics and density and more
that have an effect on gun crime.

But pick your favorite state - Vermont? - and compare its rates of gun
violence vs. other countries. Canada, just across the border, has less
gun violence in Quebec. New Brunswick, Nova Scotia and even Ontario are
better than Vermont.

And of course, the U.S. as a whole is dismal compared to essentially all
developed countries.